abomination of desolation

by tula 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Just for the record, there would be a double fulfillment of the 1335 days with respect to the removal of the "constant feature" in relation to the messiah. That is because the notification of the GB of JWs that they were the "evil slave" ended a period of 1290 days that led to the fulfillment of the 1335 days fulfilled by the appearance of the messiah.

    Interestingly, November 10, 1992 was a full moon and 44 days later a new moon occurs on December 23, 1992, the day then President of the WTS, Fred Franz dies. The messiah appeared between the 24th-26th. So for those who knew that there was a 1335 days prophecy fulfillment in line with the specific appearance of the messiah (others not acknowledging this can ignore this!), would want to understand some issue of fulfillment as far as the "removal of the constant feature" in regard to the messiah. The period we are looking at is the spring of 1989. The messiah had been unjustly disfellowshipped earlier by a committee who misunderstood some of the details of the case. The disfellowshipping was challenged and a less biased committee was requested but that request was ignored. The messiah then simply let a year expire, attending all the meetings, etc. in order to get reinstated, sometime early in 1989. But after being reinstated he found it far to painful to attend the meetings so stopped attending and simply became an inactive witness and a non-presence in the congregation. This would fulfill the "removal of the constant feature" 1290 days prior to the identification of the GB as the "evil slave" which was done via a letter written by one of the anointed to the WTS explaining this. This fulfills Bible prophecy that the "man of lawlessness" must be exposed and identified before the messiah arrives. But turns out when the MOL is revealed, it is 45 days before the messiah appears, to fulfill 1335 days.

    So there are two fulfillments of the "1335 days". For the Jews, the "day for a year" applies, for Christians literal days are applied.

    Interestingly, even though the "constant feature" was removed from the WTS when the messiah stopped attending meetings, there is an implied fulfillment for this same "time, time and half time" of apostasy by the WTS in relation to the "temple in its right condition". That is, the last 110 days leading up to November 10, 1992 should have had some fulfillment of the temple in its right condition. It was around 110 days prior to this that the messiah became one of the anointed and had begun attending meetings and again and was an active witness. So that's likely that fulfillment.

    So it's amazing when you start identifying certain applications that you see the pattern of fulfillments over and over in regard to the messiah, the Jews and JWs. But some of these fulfillments will obviously only be significant to those in the kingdom. It will mean little to outsiders. That is not to say, however, that outsiders are excluded from joining the messiah's kingdom later. Remember, when the prodigal son is given a banquet, the older brother refuses to go in and be a part of it. He doesn't understand God's choice to make the prodigal son the messiah. So his Father comes out and reassures him that "what is mine is yours" indicating he is not rejected from the kingdom, but he is still not part of the private banquet either. Thus some will understand more detailed things about the kingdom if they are part of the wedding feast, whereas others not directly part of the wedding feast will not understand or like certain fulfillments.

    It's all quite fascinating when you're seeing all the inside details.

    JC

    P.S. Since likely there can be no true context for this otherwise, when the Bible talks about "those who pierced him" seeing him, it is in reference to the messiah being unjustly disfellowshipped and thus pierced. However, some involved in this "piercing" obviously would be called on it once they find out who the messiah really is, namely, the brother they unjustly disfellowshipped, so in that close proximity to the messiah, some of those elders become JIOR, namely, three of them. Don't worry, the congregation records have long ago disappeared for some reason, so this likely can't be traced. When you move from congregation to congregation, your records are sent to the new congregation. Somewhere between transfers these records got lost. Again, this is just a note for those very much on the inside who are crossing the t's and dotting the eyes on all these prophecies and wondered how this could be fulfilled.

  • Iron Rod
    Iron Rod

    Joseph...maybe (the person who wrote the book of) Mark was eagerly expecting the celestial manifestations and miraculous appearance of the Son of Man after the events of 70 C.E. and like many before him,and many after him(JW's on many dates for example) was disappointed when none of it happened. And maybe its because they built their expectations on a bunch of stories promulgated by MEN. It might just be that simple.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Iron Rod,

    All three Gospel accounts contain nearly the same sentences. They are like other comments about the resurrection such as the ones in Paul's writings for example or others like them in Matthew chapter 25:31. Daniel described the facts differently but his message was also about the time of the resurrection. Why is it that no one puts it all together? The resurrection did not take place around 70CE. But insisting on that interpretation results in the meaning of these comments getting lost or taken to mean something else. This leaves them hiding in plain sight. The wars during 70 and 73CE were covered in the prophecy as were all other wars since then. Why insist on that view? Just because it steps on the toes of nearly every scholar in the world? They tend to copy from each other anyway so does that make them smart? Look at the Watchtower. They copy and change bad information constantly and few notice. Bad information keeps getting worse and millions believe it. That's the world we live in. When will any of us start solving such problems for ourselves?

    Joseph

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    All three Gospel accounts contain nearly the same sentences. They are like other comments about the resurrection such as the ones in Paul's writings for example or others like them in Matthew chapter 25:31. Daniel described the facts differently but his message was also about the time of the resurrection.

    Please note there is absolutely no mention of a "great tribulation" or "Daniel" in Luke. Luke clearly sets the events that would happen in 70 CE with the destruction of Jerusalem BEFORE the signs mentioned that would happen during the end times.

    11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.

    12 “But before all these things people will lay their hands upon YOU and persecute YOU , delivering YOU up to the synagogues and prisons, YOU being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name. 13 It will turn out to YOU for a witness.

    That's right. BEFORE the food shortages and the signs of the last days is when the fall of Jerusalem would take place, and there is no mention of Daniel. So Luke's description of the fall of Jerusalem is not part of the signs of the last days, but occurs before that.

    Now why is it that you miseed this, Joseph? You see so many other things, why not this?

    Now Luke's version gives us background to help understand the "disgusting thing" tha causes desolation of the "holy ones", meaning the Jews at the time of the Holocaust. It was given as a parallel. Obviously the army surrounding the holy city. Thus the Germans did surround Warsaw, Poland, literally, just as the Roman army surrounded Jerusalem, and just as the armed mob surrounded Jesus in the garden. They are all parallel. This helps us to realize the "disgusting thing" is a pagan army.

    The "abomination" is connected with The Mysteries of Babylon and that, in turn, is based on theories about the "master race" which is a disgusting thing in God's eyes, for what is lofty in man's eyes is something disgusting to God.

    Luke 16:15 "....because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight."

    JC

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Please note there is absolutely no mention of a "great tribulation" or "Daniel" in Luke. Luke clearly sets the events that would happen in 70 CE with the destruction of Jerusalem BEFORE the signs mentioned that would happen during the end times.

    JCAnon,

    Luke said no such thing and you have no verses to prove this point. I explained all this many times already. The historical generation covered in all three accounts is the same as part of the end times. They all point to His presence which is also the time for the resurrection. That is what they wanted to know and Jesus answered their question. You think that missing such words will make a difference and allow you to stretch this history over thousands of years. Well the end of the Gentile times kills that since they did not end at that time.

    Joseph

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hi Tula, I saw this reference that has a quote about the "1335 days" that I found interesting...

    http://www.triumphpro.com/1260,1290,1335.htm

    JCanon

  • Iron Rod
    Iron Rod

    Joseph....While we're on the subject of copying....the majority of scholars believe that the writers of Matthew and Luke had a copy or copies of Mark in front of them when they wrote their versions of the story. There are many clues that lead them to this conclusion,two of which are linguistic similarities as well as "Lukes" reference to many others efforts to record these events ( Luke of course inferred that his version was the most accurate).

    In light of this, it's not surprising that the verses you refer to are found in these three Gospels. However, "Matthew" and "Luke" had an advantage over "Mark." They were writing a decade or more(particularly in Lukes case) after Mark. They had the benefit of hind sight. They knew that the Celestial Climax that Mark so looked forward to; that he was sure would come during or soon after the war...never came. So they re-interpreted the prophecies to apply to some future time.( Even as Mark himself had done with Daniels prophecies before. )

    Apocalypticists have played this game over and over throughout history. First, they make definite,grandiose predictions of some dire(and usually Divine) catastrophe that is certain to come. Then, when the date comes and goes, with the world still stubbornly trudging on, they start over. After some mental/theological gymnastics, they invent a new interpretation that moves the goal post farther back.....and.voila! The whole thing starts over again.(You know, that sounds awfully familiar. Lets see...who do we all know that did that? Oh yeah...)

    Of course, you can believe whatever you want. But thats the way I see it. I stand by my earlier comments.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Joseph....While we're on the subject of copying....the majority of scholars believe that the writers of Matthew and Luke had a copy or copies of Mark in front of them when they wrote their versions of the story.

    Iron Rod,

    It looks like not only Matthew and Luke but John also had copies of the others or a photographic memory when writing their Gospel account. The fills they contain are telltale signs of such knowledge. John is the champ when it comes to this. The fact that Matthew is like Mark however ends your argument. Time is not the reason as you imply. But it does strengthen Luke’s claim of being accurate. His use of the real words stated by Jesus when giving this prophecy shows that. The correction Luke also made about the sequence as to when the wine was offered also supports such an accurate description. Notice that Matthew also asked the reader to use discernment like Mark. He did not re-interpret as you say. This would not be required if the information came after the events you think are being discussed and required hind sight as you also put it.

    Joseph

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    IR

    I do basically agree with you on Markan priority, inasmuch as it is limited to an early version of Mark (or proto-Mark), because the extant Gospel of Mark does seem to include "feedback" from the others at a later stage, in the form of both additions and editing out.

    As to the text under discussion, and especially the time connection of the Jerusalem "great tribulation" and the "sign of the Son of Man," it is noteworthy that the typically Markan eutheôs ("immediately") occurs in the extant text of Matthew (24:29), not in Mark!

    It seems that the last redactional layers of Matthew, which did postpone the "end" sine die (cf. 28:18ff), did not cut out the traditions reflecting shorter-term eschatology (cf. the even more embarrassing 10:23).

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    As to the text under discussion, and especially the time connection14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    of the Jerusalem "great tribulation" and the "sign of the Son of Man," it is noteworthy that the typically Markan euthe ô s ("immediately") occurs in the extant text of Matthew (24:29), not in Mark!

    Narkissos,

    Such additions to the detail by a later version, especially one that may have been written after 70CE is quite normal. That generation, the generation of the abomination under discussion is the same one in both accounts which is not the generation of 70CE. The resurrection did not occur during the lifetime of either writer which is what they wanted to know and our Lord did answer their question. It supports the earlier version of Mark and verifies it’s accuracy in fact.

    Narkissos said: It seems that the last redactional layers of Matthew, which did postpone the "end" sine die (cf. 28:18ff), did not cut out the traditions reflecting shorter-term eschatology (cf. the even more embarrassing 10:23).

    I liked this comment. You put your trust in men that cannot think. Then it becomes proof for your views. But words like "I am with you" and "Israel" have a deeper meaning for the Faith under Christ as the proposed father of the human race. The only ones that should be embarrassed are the ones that offer such thoughts. You cannot get away from the fact that they wanted to know when the end would come. You cannot change time. This is simply another way to identify the resurrection. The word was not used but the reality of it was understood even as such a last day was understood by Martha. There was no resurrection in 70CE. The scholars were wrong. Too bad for them.

    Joseph

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