What should I say to Mom to really help her?

by OnTheWayOut 25 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AK - Jeff

  In my opinion, protracted debates about doctrine and failed prophecy would be pointless.

  Agreed. Such matters were of intense interest to me in leaving. But for the average person, such discussion looks like attack.

  Jeff
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Jeff, some version of "what if" could work. I might tame it a bit, but still make the points
  you mentioned. The problem is that she still gets her advice from both her husband and the
  elders on most every issue. Her husband- fine. The elders- well, "what if" would have to
  be inconclusive enough that anything she says to her elders (I know them well) is not
  something they feel obligated to report to my elders.

  You are probably right though. My other thread on Mom shows that she looks for a reason
  to not shun me and keep her WT rose-colored glasses on.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  "Mom, I have always done much personal study in the WT literature. One time, I was reading
  this AWAKE on propaganda. It said, 'Education shows you how to think. Propaganda tells you
  what to think. Good educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion.
  Propagandists relentlessly force you to hear their view and discourage discussion.'"

  "It made me wonder, 'What if I was limiting myself by studying WT literature only?' The same
  article says,
  'Discernment enables you to discard irrelevant information or misleading facts and distinguish the
  substance of a matter. But how can you discern when something is misleading?

  Put information to the test: "Beloved ones," said John, a first-century Christian teacher, "do not
  believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions." ' "

  "It seems to me that I should be able to examine the truth for myself. But I have found that the meetings
  and information discourage that. The September KM even directly discouraged outside research.
  What if I told you in my outside research that sometimes WT has things wrong?"

  MOM: "Like what?"

  "We can discuss that another time. I just said, 'What if WT has things wrong?' How would you feel if
  I told you that was so?"

  ..... (Conversation where I learn how far I can say things to Mom without actually saying it.)

  "Well, Mom. I've had to stop going to the meetings so that they wouldn't influence my personal study.
  I have enjoyed the clarity of thought and the ability to decide things for myself, instead of just accepting what
  the WT literature has to say."

  This is a work in progress. How does that look so far? Especially AK-Jeff, Open Mind, Purps, Lrkr as we
  have discussed more information that others are not aware of. (Remember, faders need to leave some things out.)

  The Propaganda article (quoted at http://www.watchtower.org/e/20000622/article_03.htm) also says:

  But it is far better for each individual personally to choose what he will feed his mind. It is said that we are what we eat, and this can apply to food for both the body and the mind. No matter what you are reading or watching or listening to, test to see whether it has propagandistic overtones or is truthful.

  Moreover, if we want to be fair-minded, we must be willing to subject our own opinions to continual testing as we take in new information. We must realize that they are, after all, opinions. Their trustworthiness depends on the validity of our facts, on the quality of our reasoning, and on the standards or values that we choose to apply.

  Ask questions: As we have seen, there are many today who would like to 'delude us with persuasive arguments.' ( Colossians 2:4 ) Therefore, when we are presented with persuasive arguments, we should ask questions.

  First, examine whether there is bias. What is the motive for the message? If the message is rife with name-calling and loaded words, why is that? Loaded language aside, what are the merits of the message itself? Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking. Are they known to speak the truth? If "authorities" are used, who or what are they? Why should you regard this person—or organization or publication—as having expert knowledge or trustworthy information on the subject in question? If you sense some appeal to emotions, ask yourself, 'When viewed dispassionately, what are the merits of the message?'

  Do not just follow the crowd: If you realize that what everybody thinks is not necessarily correct, you can find the strength to think differently. While it may seem that all others think the same way, does this mean that you should? Popular opinion is not a reliable barometer of truth. Over the centuries all kinds of ideas have been popularly accepted, only to be proved wrong later. Yet, the inclination to go along with the crowd persists. The command given at Exodus 23:2 serves as a good principle: "You must not follow after the crowd for evil ends."
• 

  AK - Jeff

  There are some jw's who do wear the rose-colored glasses at times like this - they filter out what they want to, in order to do what they believe is right. [It looks as though your Mom might be among those who understand that the WTS doctrine on shunning is wrong [or at least wrong-headed], and therefore is playing denial to your exit.] This can likely play into the stategy.

  Let me ask this - you are focusing on Mom more than on Wife at the moment. Is there a reason for that? Or is this just the first target you need to address for some reason? Just curious.

  Jeff
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Let me ask this - you are focusing on Mom more than on Wife at the moment. Is there a reason for that? Or is this just the first target you need to address for some reason? Just curious.

  I am at a point with the wife where I can proceed with the fade. I am not at any meetings. I am pretty free
  to say what I want. There are rough points in it, because she is stuck in her thinking, that WTS has more
  "right" than anybody else, and she uses her mantra, "Wait on Jehovah." Still, I will continue to free her
  mind. I am not totally switching focus. I have much more hope to free the wife than the mother.

  I am just fed up as a fader, making no actual progress with Mom. She put her blinders back on after our
  past discussions. I speak to her and she thinks she is thinking for herself. She thinks she is gathering all
  evidence and being discerning. In reality, she only reads the WT literature and fits everything in to her
  indoctrination training (pre-1975) and adjusts it as needed to fit the fact that the end is not yet. She thinks it
  is as imminent as ever.

  If Mom could see that I, an avid student of the literature, am truly thinking for myself, I see it helping.
  She is tired of long conventions, and I told her just to go to one day, Sunday- skip Fri. and Sat. . She agreed that would be good,
  but then her guilt gets to her. I tell her I didn't even go at all, and she compartmentalizes that to think perhaps
  it was just difficulty with Foreign Language. I tried to say more, but she was just interested in finding a way
  to say "He's still a good JW."

  I am virtually at a point where I would settle for either one- my wife or my mother walking away from JW's.
  If it were the wife, I could be totally free and open without DA/DF and just let Mom think we are both inactive.
  If it were Mom, I could still be free and open, I could DA if necessary to appease the wife as I do more and
  more normal things like holidays, voting, charity, whatever.

  No matter what, I am going to keep inching toward being totally true to myself and doing whatever I think is
  best, no matter what any JW's think about it.
• 

  Open mind

  Hi OTWO,
  
  I think we're both just trying to figure this out as we go along. One idea that I've picked up here on JWD that continues to sound valid to me is that there's no ONE MAGIC BULLET. Everyone is different in what they will be most open to. It's frustrating, I think, but pretty hard to disagree with.
  
  Black Sheep said:
  
  "607 is the sand upon which the WT stands or falls. It is the stake poised above the Watchtowers heart. Hammer it home. Gently. Gently. Gently. Gently."
  
  As a practical matter I don't completely agree. It all depends on the person whether or not 607 will have any impact. I definitely agree though about the "Gently. Gently. Gently." part. In fact, Black Sheep and I probably are actually on the same page with this since he emphasized the "Gently" part so much. I would just add that part of the "Gently" approach includes being ready to drop any particular topic the instant you sense you've gone too far.
  
  So far with my wife, we've not had any confrontational discussions and I'm trying to keep it that way. Once it gets confrontational, there's no reaching a person, IMO.
  
  *OM partially inserts tongue into cheek for this next part*
  
  Let us not forget the DISCREET part of the Faithful & Discreet Slave. Can we perhaps learn something from this wise group? I think so.
  
  Like it or not, you and I are now agents of Satan. ;-)
  
  So just try out some of the ideas that have been so conveniently handed to us through the pages of the Watchtower.
  
  I think the biggest tool I am using is GRADUALISM. On many fronts. Entertainment. Exposure to "worldy pursuits" and people. Seeing that many are kind and loving. (Kinda goes along with the "Gently. Gently" theme, I know.) One by one introducing areas where the WT might be a bit off base. You don't cook a frog by throwing them in boiling water. You GRADUALLY increase the temperature.
  
  Thank you, thank you Brooklyn for giving me the recipe to freedom! I'm getting cocky here. No guarantees I know.
  
  Here's a specific idea you might want to consider with your Mom. The January '07 WT QFR on toasting. Has she read it? I've heard a few local JWs in private conversation mentioning how stupid this article is. It contradicts itself and is really weak. Approach it from a "I'm confused" or "Do you see this the same way I am? Am I missing something here?" angle.
  
  I realize the WT prohibition on glass clinking will easily be accepted by any JW who just wants to continue living on Auto Pilot. It's not an issue of great importance. That's why, I think, it's a good "test baloon". You could say something like, "Hey, don't get me wrong, I REALLY don't think this is a big issue and it's certainly not creating a hardship for anyone. I just have a hard time believing that Jehovah really cares whether or not we clink glasses. To be honest, when I first started reading the QFR, I thought glass clinking was going to go the way of wind chimes. Weak ties to pagan origin, but not worth making an issue over. I was really surprised to see the WT continuing to take a hard line on such a non-issue. I wonder if any non-JW WT readers were actually turned off by this article? I doubt that Mrs. OTWO will be showing this QFR to her co-workers any time soon. It's almost embarrasing."
  
  See how that goes. Establish a beach-head of "THE WT CAN BE WRONG RIGHT NOW" and play it by ear from there.
  
  Hope this is of some benefit.
  
  *CHEERS!!*
  
  Open Mind
• 

  Open mind

  A thought on the 7000 year creative days and the imminent arrival of the Big A.
  
  What does your Mom think of the redefining of the word "generation"? Does she realize that per the WT QFR in 1995, the end could possibly be 100 or 200 years away?
  
  What does she think about the Sept. 2006, Creation Awake avoiding saying anything about Creative Days being only "thousands" of years long? It had an entire article entitled "Does Science Contradict the Genesis Account?" that dealt with the length of the creative days. Here's the most definitive quote, IMO:
  
  "Contrary to the claims of some Fundamentailists, Genesis does not teach that the universe, including the earth and ALL LIVING THINGS ON IT, (caps added by me) was created in a short period of time in the relatively recent past."
  
  If the WT was going to stick to the ridiculous 7,000 year creative days that I had to squirm through High School Science classes with, this was their golden opportunity to do so. It was conspicuously absent. Whether God finished the creation of life 6,000 years ago or 48,000 years ago, they would both qualify as "relatively recent". Both are a blink of an eye in geologic terms. Both are equally absurd. Unless you want to invoke the "God can do anything" (including being a deceptive, evidence-destroying and evidence-planting con-man) argument.
  
  If she doesn't want to consider the scientific evidence, you could try this approach. "Mom, the WT has let go of 1975, 7000 year creative days and the generation of 1914. This is the "new light" Mom. You've gotta keep in step with "present truth". (Try to make it to the bathroom before the vomiting starts though.)
  
  Take care.
  
  Open Mind
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Open Mind, I don't see trying to get a fully indoctrinated JW to listen concerning the age of creation.
  It seems juvenile once your mind is free, but to a hardcore JW, "Science is just wrong."

  But I do like the simpleness of "the toast."
  
  "Virtually everything has a pagan origin. What matters is how it is viewed today.
  Like wedding rings, the clinking of glasses is an outward symbol of something completely different from
  what it may have originally been. If you base your view of anything by an examination of it's roots, then
  you would have to reject the Watchtower organization that used the Great Pyramid to determine that
  1914 was [the start of] the last days."
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I have learned to go with my inner feelings, regardless of the consequences.

  REBORNAGAIN, thanks for that. I ask others and develop my inner feelings as I learn more.
  I have learned to turn off my cognitive dissonance long ago, admit I might not be right or might
  not have the best answer. In debate, I might concede to another point of view if I paid attention
  and liked what the person had to say. I am not a pushover, but my view, inner feeling will
  change if I see another side of things.

  My inner feeling tells me that no matter what I say, Mom won't shun me if I am an inactive JW,
  nor would she turn me in. If anything will help her out, I am willing to do it and risk being wrong.
  So, I am getting ready to say something. I want the "something" to be effective.
• 

  oompa

  How old is Mom, and how long has she been in?

  thanks and I will go back and read the old thread....oompa