587/607 Question...

by deaconbluez 129 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    AnnOMaly

    Post 535

    My track record is bery good as I have responded to your nonsense with much vigour. I need not to worry about May/Nisan because the matter is between you and Furuli. If you are to scared to write Furuli then I cannot help you.

    If your honesty does not impell you to write to Furuli about the matter and simply prefer to spread your opinion publicly then that is deceit because you do not know whether it is right or wrong.

    It seems that you have been brought to sense and are now discussing the matter with Furuli. Very good. Let us know publicly what the story is.

    People can read Grabbe's review themselves and make their own judgements.

    Alan F's concession is there for all to read. The discussion is public record. The question is who was righ: The Society or Jonsson?

    I have not yet contacted Furuli so I have only what he has told me and I believe he is a person of integrity.

    scholar JW

  • KW13
    KW13

    Scholar your loyalty is first to the Organization you serve, then God.

    I can look at Chronology as it is, have it agree with the Bible and disagree with the Society.

    You believe in a Society that has to disprove current Dating/Chronology by discrediting sources rather than proving they aren't accurate and then providing an accurate source. The bible itself does not provide dates, you rely on other sources to get any form of dating but when it suits you they cannot possibly be right. That is your first and biggest mistake.

    Deuteronomy 18:20 - Regarding False/Failed Prophecy

    But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

    The Society have made predictions, forget the new light excuse - THEY MADE PREDICTIONS SCHOLAR that DID NOT HAPPEN. Did any Prophet in the Bible make a prophecy and then have to blame it on the light getting brighter?

    The Anointed are supposed to have the Holy Spirit; but actually so is every Christian because unless you have the Holy Spirit you cannot say that Christ Jesus is Lord.

    The Bible doesn't only speak of Holy Spirit coming upon us it speaks of it inside of us; Maybe its a frightening thought but it needn't be.

    Acts 2:4 - All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

    1 Corinthians 12: 3 - Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

    In simple words Scholar, your buggered.

    ---

    Luke 21:8

    He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them;

    This was said by Jesus regarding signs of the end of the system of things, the last days which according to the Organization you serve is now.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    'Scholar'

    My track record is bery good as I have responded to your nonsense with much vigour.

    I give you an A+ for vigor but an F for 'trouncing' skills.

    It seems that you have been brought to sense and are now discussing the matter with Furuli. Very good. Let us know publicly what the story is.

    Nah.

    To quote your good self: "I will sit on it until the opportunity arises for it to be made public."

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom
    Scholar: I take your point that Nisan 1 did not fall in May however Furuli has shown that the data says differently. So, either Furuli has made a typo or the that is what primary data indicates. As I have said before you must take up this matter with Furuli himself and see what is going on. I cannot help and I cannot understand why you do not do whar common sense should impell you to do. Write to Furuli!!!!!!

    Hi, Neil --

    No, it's not a typo; it's an integral part of Furuli's "new chronology." He proposes a totally new (and unsubstantiated) list of dates for the entire year 588 BCE. Every single day of his proposed year 588 BCE differs from the standard charts for 588 BCE used by all Assyriologists, archeo-astronomers, and historians.

    Furuli does not claim that he has found any new primary data (such as a tablet showing evidence of a previously unattested intercalary month) which would indicate that Nisan 1 fell in May in 588. (And, remember, this would be very, very unlikely, since according to the standard charts used by all scholars, there was never a single instance in 700 years of Nisan 1 falling on May 1.)

    No, he does not have any new data. On page 312 of his new book, he explains how he has retro-calculated to come up with the date of May 2 for Nisan 1, 588 BCE.

    His starting point is the last line of the front side (obverse) of VAT 4956. "...there is a break where a lunar eclipse most likely is reported on the fifteenth day of the month." This lunar eclipse is mentioned on the line for Month III (Simanu), day 15.

    Ok, so since the tablet mentions a lunar eclipse on day 15 of Month 3 of the Babylonian year, he has to find a year in which there really was an eclipse on (or about) Month 3, day 15.

    568 works. There was an eclipse on July 4, 568 BCE. And 568 is the year accepted by all scholars (other than Furuli) for the astronomical data in VAT 4956.

    But Furuli would like the data to fit 588 instead, because of the 20-year gap between his (i.e., the Watchtower's) chronology and the traditional chronology.

    So he looks in 588 to see if there was some other lunar eclipse. There was. It fell on July 15. But the problem is that the eclipse mentioned in VAT 4956 was in Month 3 of the year. Counting backwards, that means Month 2 would start around June 1, and month 1 ( Nisan) would start on May 2.

    Now remember, according to the standard charts used by all Assyriologists, archeo-astronomers, and historians, Nisan 1 NEVER fell on a date in May.

    Bur Furuli is stuck. If he wants the data in VAT 4956 to fit 588 (and it doesn't... but more on that, later), he has to go with the only lunar eclipse he can find which is anywhere in the neighborhood at all, the one on July 15.

    So then he comes up with May 2 for Nisan 1 by ASSUMING that VAT 4956 has data from 588, and then he counts backwards (retro-calculates).

    Now this creates huge problems. All those pages of chart after chart of calculation showing the various planetary, star, and lunar positions for the year 588/587BCE are based on the totally hypothetical year he has created. None of his dates for 588/587 match the dates in the standard tables, Neil. It's not a typo. It's a deliberate.

    So when he input dates into the astronomy software program he used (TheSky6), he input dates from his own hypothetical year 588.

    Regards,
    Marjorie

  • startingover
    startingover

    Just bookmarking this excellent thread. Kudos to Anne and Alleymom. And Scholar, you are nothing but a weasel!

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    Scholar: You mention recent research that you believe supports current dating of the data for Vat 4956. I cheked Furuli's bibliography and it appears that John Steele is cited but not the others. If you believe that these articles are important then why not forward or convey this information to Furuli for comment. It is probably the case that this recent research is simply based upon older or recent translations of VAT 4956. Furuli based his new research on his own independent transalation of the document hence the data is shown to different.

    See my post: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/145519/2656255/post.ashx#2656255

    Neil,

    The authors I cited "confidently" confirm the accepted date of 568/567 BCE for the astronomical data in VAT 4956.

    In addition to the article "The Earliest Datable Observation of the Aurora Borealis," by Dr. Richard Stephenson and Dr. David M. Willis, pp. 421-428, in Under One Sky: Astronomy and Mathematics in the Ancient Near East (Band 297 in the series Alter Orient und Altes Testament), edited by John M. Steele and Annette Imahusen, published in 2002 by Ugarit-Verlag, Munster, the information has also been published in several different professional journals since 1999 (including the Journal for the History of Astronomy and Astronomy and Geophysics.) It has been reviewed by scholars from a number of disciplines, including physicists, Assyriologists, and archeo-astronomers.

    FWIW, I also verified the authors' results myself by inputting them into an astronomy software program.

    As you know, Furuli has a lengthy discussion of the lines of text in VAT 4956 which give various planetary, stellar, and lunar positions for different months and days and of a certain Babylonian year.

    What you are probably NOT aware of is that Furuli deliberately chose to completely ignore an entire series of highly important data in VAT 4956, data which pinpoints the exact day on which the observations were made.

    You may recall that Furuli discusses line after line of the text of VAT 4956, even going into great detail about how clearly each cuneiform sign was written, and whether it might be read another way.

    However, he just skips over the places in the text where the Babylonian astronomers give very precise measurements for a set of time-intervals called "the Lunar Three."

    The Babylonians kept careful track of sunrise, sunset, moonrise, and moonset. Then they recorded time intervals between these occurrences. (For instance, they recorded the time interval between moonrise and sunrise on day 26 of Month 2. )

    These time intervals can be calculated using modern astronomy programs. It is actually very easy to do. All you have to do is find what time the sun rose and set and what time the moon rose and set, and then subtract to find out how many hours and minutes passed between these events.

    One time-degree equals 4 minutes. So if 92 minutes, for example, passed between moonrise and sunrise, you divide by 4 and convert 92 minutes to 23 degrees.

    Scientists have computed and verified the Lunar Three measurements in VAT 4956. They are extremely accurate, on the order of 1 time-degree ( = 4 minutes), for the year 568/567 BCE.

    Even thought he goes into a lengthy discussion of a myriad of tiny details from the the text of VAT 4956, Furuli does not even mention the significance of the Lunar Three observations.

    He does not discuss them or calculate them or print them in his charts.

    He passes over them in complete silence.

    I have done the calculations for the year he favors, 588/587 BCE. The numbers are not even close.

    The "Lunar Three" observations recorded in VAT 4956 totally demolish his argument in favor of the year 588 BCE.

    Regards,
    Marjorie

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    Even thought he goes into a lengthy discussion of a myriad of tiny details from the the text of VAT 4956, Furuli does not even mention the significance of the Lunar Three observations.

    He does not discuss them or calculate them or print them in his charts.

    He passes over them in complete silence.

    I have done the calculations for the year he favors, 588/587 BCE. The numbers are not even close.

    The "Lunar Three" observations recorded in VAT 4956 totally demolish his argument in favor of the year 588 BCE.

    I have a small correction. I shouldn't have said that Furuli passes over the Lunar Three observations in "complete" silence. On page 320, where he quotes the text for Addaru 1 (line 12'), he does include the phrase "sunset to moonset, 25 [time-degrees]."

    However, he offers no explanation or discussion of this time interval, and it is not included in the chart for Addaru 1 on the next page.

    Here are the places where he omits the time-intervals:

    On page 314 he jumps from an entry for Month 1 (Nisan) and skips to an entry for Month 2 (Ayyaru 1, line 8) without ever quoting or discussing the time-interval for Month 1, day 14 (Nisan 14, line 4). He omitted: "sunrise to moonset, 4 [degrees]."

    Also on page 314, he omits the time-interval for Ayyaru 26 (line 11). "Moonrise to sunrise, 23 [degrees]."

    Page 315, he quotes from part of the text of line 12 (Simanu 1), but omits the time interval "sunset to moonset: 20 [degrees]."

    Page 317, he quotes from part of the text of line 5' (Sabatu 1), but omits the time interval "sunset to moonset: 14 [degrees] 30"."

    Page 320, mentioned at the top of this message, he quotes the text accurately and includes the time-interval "sunset to moonset, 25 [degrees]" but does not discuss it or provide a calculation for any of the three years he considers in his charts.

    Page 323, he quotes from part of the text of line 16' (Addaru 12), but he omits the time-interval "sunrise to moonrise: 1 [degree] 30"."

    According to the scientists I have cited in my previous posts, these "Lunar Three" time-intervals are so specific that they make it possible to accurately date the astronomical texts.

    It is hard to understand how Prof. Furuli could devote so much discussion to the details of VAT 4956 --an entire chapter, pp. 94-123, plus a 60-page appendix, pp. 266-325 -- and never touch upon the significance of the Lunar Three time-interval observations.

    Regards,
    Marjorie Alley

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Hi Alleymom,

    So then he comes up with May 2 for Nisan 1 by ASSUMING that VAT 4956 has data from 588, and then he counts backwards (retro-calculates).

    Yes, as you know, Furuli confirmed to me that this was his method, that is putting the eclipse of July 15, 588 in month 3 and working backwards.

    But this same principle wasn't applied for his analysis of the lunar eclipse tablet LBAT 1421 (p.126) which is dated to Nebuchadnezzar's year 42 in 563/2 BCE. According to the tablet, the eclipses occurred in months 6 and 12, or September 5, 563 BCE and March 2/3, 562 BCE.

    Inexplicably, Furuli assigns Sept 5 to month 5 and March 2/3 to month 11 and concludes that 563/2 BCE doesn't fit the tablet's data at all, whereas 20 years earlier in 583/2 BCE at least one of the Julian dates for the eclipse matches month 12. All in all, according to him, this proves the tablet - indeed, all the lunar tablets he discusses in Chapter 7 - cannot be used as chronological witnesses because they are all wrong in some way!

    Furuli hasn't yet answered my question about that (or some other matters) and now chooses to privately continue the discussion. I wonder if he will.

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    JOSEPHUS REFERENCE: Antiquities 10.9.7 "7. And when they were there, God signified to the prophet that the king of Babylon was
    about making an expedition against the Egyptians, and commanded him to foretell to the people that Egypt should be taken, and the king
    of Babylon should slay some of them and, should take others captive, and bring them to Babylon; which things came to pass accordingly;
    for on the fifth year after the destruction of Jerusalem, which was the TWENTY-THIRD of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an
    expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had
    brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned (16) and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon."

    The above establishes that the Jews were part of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar - those Jews who had run down to Egypt who had not been killed off.

    BIBLICAL REFERENCES:

    First, Jer. 52: 30 establishes a 23rd-year deportation:

    29 In the eighteenth year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, FROM JERUSALEM there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.

    30 In the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and
    forty-five souls."

    Thus Josephus and the Bible both mention a 23rd-year deportation, with Josephus establishing those deported were from Babylon.
    Jeremiah suggests potentially that the 23rd year deportation was from Jerusalem. But this need not be a contradiction if the Jews
    were deported the same 23rd year from Egypt via Jerusalem. Supporting this very conclusion is Jeremiah 44:14 and 28:

    JER. 44:14 "And there will come to be no escapee or survivor for the remnant of Judah who are entering in to reside there as aliens, in
    the land of Egypt, even to return to the land of Judah to which they are lifting up their soul[ful desire] to return in order to dwell; for they will not return, except some escaped ones.'"

    JER. 44:28 "And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them."'"

    CONCLUSION: The last deportation of the Jews in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar were the last remaining ones who had run down to Egypt and who stopped in Judea at least for a short while on their way to Babylon.

    This challenges the ScholarJW teaching that the land was completely desolated from year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar. So even though JWs use
    Josephus' reference to a literal 70 years of desolation, and indeed, sometimes even Josephus seems to read that the seventy years are
    counted from the "conflagration" (destruction of Jerusalem), the specific reference here and at Antiquities 11.1.1 establish the specific 70 years begins in year 23 connected with the last deportation.

    ANT 11.1.1 "IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus 1 which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity."

    Therefore, if ScholarJW is going to quote from Josephus regarding the seventy years, he will have to begin the 70 years when Josephus
    does, which is year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, and further acknowledge that the land was not completely desolated until after the 23rd year
    since some of the Jews who had ran down to Egypt did return to Jerusalem for a short while. Therefore, the 1914 doctrine interpretation connected with 607 BCE fall of Jerusalem is 5 years off, since if you date the return of the Jews in 537 BCE, then 607 BCE would represent year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar 70 years earlier rather than year 18, the year Jerusalem falls. That in turn moves year 18 back 5 years to 612 BCE, which also moves 1914 back 5 years to 1909 AD. Of course, I'm sure the cult will find something significant that happened in 1909 that would prove Christ arrived in that year rather than 1914, but even so at the moment as long as they are dating the fall of Jerusalem in 607BCE based upon the seventy-year reference and using Josephus to support that reference, they are in error 5 years.


    Ian

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    JOSEPHUS REFERENCE: Antiquities 10.9.7 "7. And when they were there, God signified to the prophet that the king of Babylon was
    about making an expedition against the Egyptians, and commanded him to foretell to the people that Egypt should be taken, and the king
    of Babylon should slay some of them and, should take others captive, and bring them to Babylon; which things came to pass accordingly;
    for on the fifth year after the destruction of Jerusalem, which was the TWENTY-THIRD of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an
    expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had
    brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned (16) and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon."

    The above establishes that the Jews were part of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar - those Jews who had run down to Egypt who had not been killed off.

    BIBLICAL REFERENCES:

    First, Jer. 52: 30 establishes a 23rd-year deportation:

    29 In the eighteenth year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, FROM JERUSALEM there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.

    30 In the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and
    forty-five souls."

    Thus Josephus and the Bible both mention a 23rd-year deportation, with Josephus establishing those deported were from Babylon.
    Jeremiah suggests potentially that the 23rd year deportation was from Jerusalem. But this need not be a contradiction if the Jews
    were deported the same 23rd year from Egypt via Jerusalem. Supporting this very conclusion is Jeremiah 44:14 and 28:

    JER. 44:14 "And there will come to be no escapee or survivor for the remnant of Judah who are entering in to reside there as aliens, in
    the land of Egypt, even to return to the land of Judah to which they are lifting up their soul[ful desire] to return in order to dwell; for they will not return, except some escaped ones.'"

    JER. 44:28 "And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them."'"

    CONCLUSION: The last deportation of the Jews in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar were the last remaining ones who had run down to Egypt and who stopped in Judea at least for a short while on their way to Babylon.

    This challenges the ScholarJW teaching that the land was completely desolated from year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar. So even though JWs use
    Josephus' reference to a literal 70 years of desolation, and indeed, sometimes even Josephus seems to read that the seventy years are
    counted from the "conflagration" (destruction of Jerusalem), the specific reference here and at Antiquities 11.1.1 establish the specific 70 years begins in year 23 connected with the last deportation.

    ANT 11.1.1 "IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus 1 which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity."

    Therefore, if ScholarJW is going to quote from Josephus regarding the seventy years, he will have to begin the 70 years when Josephus
    does, which is year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, and further acknowledge that the land was not completely desolated until after the 23rd year
    since some of the Jews who had ran down to Egypt did return to Jerusalem for a short while. Therefore, the 1914 doctrine interpretation connected with 607 BCE fall of Jerusalem is 5 years off, since if you date the return of the Jews in 537 BCE, then 607 BCE would represent year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar 70 years earlier rather than year 18, the year Jerusalem falls. That in turn moves year 18 back 5 years to 612 BCE, which also moves 1914 back 5 years to 1909 AD. Of course, I'm sure the cult will find something significant that happened in 1909 that would prove Christ arrived in that year rather than 1914, but even so at the moment as long as they are dating the fall of Jerusalem in 607BCE based upon the seventy-year reference and using Josephus to support that reference, they are in error 5 years.


    Ian

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