Doctorinal Question: JWs teach Jesus is Micheal the Arc Angel.....

by Lady Liberty 72 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  lovelylil

  Phil,

  Those are great points you brought out. Jesus was exalted as you pointed out so that his name is above all others at this time. We know he is the head of the Church and our future king.

  But, none of the "exalting" of Jesus mentioned in Hebrews points to the fact that he had to be a lower nature as an Angel prior to this. As the only begotten Son of God, he is and always was the divine Son. The one and only eternal son of God.

  My understanding of Hebrews 1 is that Jesus as the eternal son is being contrasted to the other sons of God who are Angels. And in this contrast the writer is showing Jesus superiority.

  But, I can be wrong, like you said. People interpret the bible scriptures in different ways. However, I don't feel I am wrong when I state that not one scripture of our official bible cannon gives support to Jesus being Michael teaching. And the view that Jesus was created or had a beginning is an Arian view and a heresy according to the early church. Jesus is not an Archangel, he is the eternal Son of God. Way superior to any of the Angels or Archangels.

  This is the accepted view of most of Christendom, mostly all (if not all) Bible Scholars and the early church supports Jesus as being eternal and not created. But I can appreciate the fact that you are entitled to your own opinion and interpretation of scripture. And I can respect that. I am not trying to change your personal views. I am merely trying to respond to the topic brought up in this thread about Jesus being Michael.

  Personally I have examined all 6 scriptural texts used to support this view and I feel you have to read into them something that is not there. And I believe this is what Russell did and the groups he fathered, JW's and Bible Student groups to this day, are repeating Russell's error. But this is only my opinion and may not be shared by others.

  Peace, Lilly
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  Honesty

  Actually, John 1:1 in the Greek tells us "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with HO THEOS (The God), and the Word was THEOS (god). So there is a distinction between THE God and God or god.

  Some translations say and the word was divine or godlike

  RR

  My heretically enhanced radar homed in on this statement so I skipped a lot of other posts to ask RR a question and hope I haven't intruded in on anyone else:

  Actually, John 1:1 in the Greek tells us "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with HO THEOS (The God), and the Word was THEOS (god). So there is a distinction between THE God and God or god.

  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  The Greek text says:

  Enarxhhnologov,kaiologovhnprovtonqeon,kaiqeovhnologov.

  English:

  in beginning was this word, and this word was towards this God, indeed God was this word

  RR, do you believe that God was this word as John 1:1 says?
• 

  lovelylil

  RR,

  I do not see any distinction between 2 Gods in John 1:1. Here is the verse;

  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

  I bold faced the words and am asking you where two God's are mentioned in this verse?

  First of all Jesus was the "Word". So this verse is saying "in the beginning was Jesus (the Word), and Jesus (the Word) was with God, and Jesus (the Word) was God. It cannot be any plainer than the Apostle John stated it. Jesus was with God in the beginning and was God. There is no one else but "The Word" (Jesus) mentioned in John 1:1

  Now, that being said. Since you BS like to say like the JW's that Jesus was the first creation of God, thus Michael the Archangel, please pay attention to this part of John's statement. I've bold faced it for you;

  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

  Now, where did you read this line "in the beginning" before? I'll tell you where. It is in the first line of the Bible. Genesis 1:1

  1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

  Thus, the Apostle John is placing Jesus, the Word of God in the beginning with God. That is BEFORE the world and creation began. He is proving that Jesus always existed. He was not created, he was always the eternal son of God. So John is writing this down using the term "in the beginning" to prove Jesus divinity and his eternal nature. Got it?

  Now, let me ask you another Q. You are saying Jesus is a "god" but not "The God". Well, scripture says there is only one True God. Then, are you saying Christ was a false God?

  I am eagerly awaiting your response.

  Lilly
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  bite me

  I am interested in this response too.
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  lovelylil

  As usual RR did a hit and run. I doubt he will come back and try to answer these Q's that were raised by his comment. I would be interested in his response though and especially if he can give scriptural support for Jesus being a little god.

  RR, are you there? still waiting...........................................Lilly

  Well, I have to go to work. Be back to hopefully continue this discussion tomarrow.
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  RR

  The reason is because this strange teaching started with Charles Russell and is one of the very few teachings of Russell that the WT still holds to.

  Sorry lil, but this teaching did not originate with PAstor Russell. I'm not sure who originated it, but I have commentaries published before the Watchtower was formed that say Jesus is Michael, also the 2nd Adventist and Seventh Day Adventist aklso believe Jesus is Michael.

  RR
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  RR

  John 17:5And now, Father, glorifyme in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

  Again, Jesus was WITH God and WAS God prior to becoming flesh and dwelling on the earth. The teaching of Russell and the current WT that Christ was a created being (Arian teaching) is a heresy. Since Russell insisted Christ was created, he had to explain who he was or how he existed prior to coming to earth. Thus, he made Christ the Archangel Michael.

  Ah, so you are a trinitarian now?

  RR
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  bite me

  I am waiting too.....

  It's "tomorrow" now.
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  lovelylil

  RR,

  A couple of points. First of all you did not answer the Q that me and two others had about john 1:1. You claimed there are two God's mentioned there. "The" God and a little god, which is Jesus. Please point out where you get this information from as no one else sees the two Gods?

  Secondly, let me rephrase my statement. For the JW and Bible Student movement Russell carried over the teaching that Jesus is Michael. I was not sure of his source for the information but you so kindly pointed out that Russell borrowed this teaching from the adventists, so thank you very much.

  Thirdly, you asked am I a trinitarian now. Not exactly. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person in the same sense as Jesus was but I do now accept that Christ is the divine and eternal son of God and thus is equal in nature to God. Hope this clears things up for you.

  Again, we are waiting for you to show us where there are two Gods mentioned in John 1:1??. Also if you wish to respond to the statement John used "in the beginning" to show Jesus eternal nature, I will gladly listen.

  Please use scriptural references only and no quotes from Russell's books. Thanks, Lilly
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  RR

  Thus, the Apostle John is placing Jesus, the Word of God in the beginning with God. That is BEFORE the world and creation began. He is proving that Jesus always existed. He was not created, he was always the eternal son of God. So John is writing this down using the term "in the beginning" to prove Jesus divinity and his eternal nature. Got it?

  The key word is "beginning." What beginning? The beginning of creation of the earth, and not just any beginning of creation, because the earth was already there, it was just "form;less and void" so the "beginning" spoken of here is the preparation of the earth for God's purpose. The angels were already present. So this is not THE beginning, for that would mean that God had a beginning.

  RR