Doctorinal Question: JWs teach Jesus is Micheal the Arc Angel.....

by Lady Liberty 72 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    RR,

    Thanks for your response.

    John 1:1 clearly indicates Christ's diety. John says the Word (Jesus) was With God and Was God. "With" indicates a personal relationship but also implies equal status with the father. To stress the point that this is true, John next states the Word (Jesus) WAS God. A clear indication of Christ's diety.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it show Christ having a beginning. He was always with God, before the foundation of the world began. He is eternal and has "life in himself" according to scripture. Also, the Bible is clear that ALL things were created through Christ and for him. God the father created all things thru God the Son. (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2).

    Before you even comment on these points, please point out for us where there are 2 Gods mentioned in John 1:1. And answer this; If Christ is "a god" and not "The God" is he a false God? I would think he is since the Bible says there is only ONE true God.

    Lilly

  • RR
    RR
    Again, we are waiting for you to show us where there are two Gods mentioned in John 1:1??. Also if you wish to respond to the statement John used "in the beginning" to show Jesus eternal nature, I will gladly listen.

    I think you put too much into John 1:1. The problem becomes apparent when one compares John 1:1 with 1 John 1:2. Both texts are from the same author, about the same time, and express the same thoughts. John 1:1 says the Word was "with God," 1 John 1:2 says the Word was "with the Father." Clearly John intends that "God" was "the Father." If John intends that the Word was "God Himself," he must mean the Word was "the Father", a conclusion not even trinitarians embrace.

    "When John said that the Word was God he was not saying that Jesus is identical with God; he was saying that Jesus is so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being, that in Jesus we perfectly see what God is like" (William Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol. 1, page 17). In this camp are the following: William Barclay, Martin Vincent, J.P. Lange, Robert Young, Brook Foss Westcott, Kenneth Wuest, George Turner, Julius Mantey, H.E. Dana, Moulton and Moffat. Typical of this view is the REB translation: "The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was."

    It's possible that this was John's point. However, I believe the Bible Student view fits the context still better. As many students of the Bible are aware, the words "a" and "an" (called indefinite articles) do not exist in the Greek language. If one wished to say "I saw a tree," in Greek it would be "I saw tree" and everyone would know the intent is "a" tree. Therefore a translator would automatically supply it. This is done everywhere in the New Testament where the English word "a" or "an" appears.

    So in John 1:1. The text actually says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was [a?] God." Should the translator supply the intended "a" or not? That is the question. Contrary to many vocal claims on this issue, it is a sound and reasonable thing to do. C. H. Dodd, driving force of the NEB, acknowledges "As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted." (Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, 28, Jan. 1977, page). Notice that the translators of the King James version had no hesitation in using "a god" in Acts 28:6 where the context makes it obvious. (It also belongs in John 10:33, as the logic of Jesus' reply shows.)

    A very good reason for adding "a" in John 1:1 is John 1:18, but the point is hidden in the King James version. Today it is generally acknowledged that the better, earlier Greek manuscripts of this verse refer to Jesus as "the only begotten god" (see the NASB for example). John there says no one has ever seen "God," but "the only begotten god, which is in the bosom of the Father," has appeared to declare what God is about. First it is clear that by "God" John means "the Father." Second it is clear that John has two gods in mind -- God himself, the unseen, and the son of God, Jesus, who in his own right is also a mighty being, "a god." Since John 1:18 distinguishes two mighty beings, it is apparent that John 1:1 also distinguishes two mighty beings.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, And broke their chains in pieces. Oh, that men would give thanks to the LORD for His goodness, And for his wonderful works to the children of men! For He has broken the gates of bronze, And cut the bars of iron in two. Psalm 107:14-16

    He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions. Oh, that men would give thanks to the LORD for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men! Let them sacrifice the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And declare his works with rejoicing. Psalm 107:20-22
  • blueviceroy
    blueviceroy

    I must ask " Of what real importance is proving or disproving the beliefs of others? "

    Of infinitly more value are the truths one discovers for oneself to be real.

    What perverse satisfaction is found in the fallacy of others?

    Empathy for the lost , not derision for them , or discrediting and already bereft system of beliefs.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear blueviceroy...

    "Empathy for the lost , not derision for them , or discrediting and already bereft system of beliefs."...

    ...for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Luke 19:10

    love michelle

  • blueviceroy
    blueviceroy

    I hate to pull this out again but maybe some nebw people will see it

    http://members.shaw.ca/yofrizb

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    RR,

    Where is the support in the original Greek text for adding an "a" into John 1:1 and stating Jesus was "a" god? You yourself said the KJV, which is the Bible translation Russell mostly used did not translate John 1:1 in that way. We cannot just change a verse to fit into our own theology which is what Russell did.

    Russell made an addition to John 1:1 by adding in brackets {a} when he wrote his Study in the Scripture books. The WT, a group he helped "father" then continued with this addition in brackets when they created the NWT bible to support thier own teachings. They reject the divinity of Christ and make him a much lower Archangel. The view Jesus was "created" was an Arian view and a heresy in the time of the Bible.

    But again, can you show us one Greek translation that supports this addition? Not one Bible other than the NWT translates John 1:1 with the additional "a". Not the KJ, NASB, NIV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, etc.

    Russell created a big problem by tampering with John 1:1 and calling Jesus "a god" instead of The God. How? It is because the Bible teaches a strict monotheism. To say Jesus is a lesser god is to suggest there is another god besides YHWH, which is contrary to scripture. (Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,8, etc.). How can Jesus be a lesser god (Not The Mighty God) and not be a false God according to scripture?

    Actually, Jesus IS INDEED The Mighty God according to Isaiah. Isaiah 9:6 states "For a child will be given to us, and the government will rest on his shoulders, and his name will be called wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace". Isn't this speaking about Christ? It is saying he is Mighty God and The Eternal Father! How many mighty Gods and eternal fathers are there?

    I understand the difference between a father and a son and the difference is in position only and not nature. For example a human father is greater than his son in position YET they are still equal in nature as they are both human beings. Thus, God the father and God the Son are equal in nature although the father is higher in position.

    The Jews of Jesus day understood this exact point. When Jesus claimed to be God's son, they wanted to stone him for they said "you are calling yourself God's son, making yourself equal to God". (John 5:18)

    Now, for the last time, where are two Gods mentioned in John 1:1. The only one John is speaking about is "the Word" which is Jesus. No one esle.

    Lilly

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear blueviceroy...

    as long as were talking about love......see John 14:15...then Matthew 28:19...

    and Matthew 18:14 says: Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish....

    perish...what does perish mean to you?

    love michelle

  • RR
    RR
    Where is the support in the original Greek text for adding an "a" into John 1:1 and stating Jesus was "a" god? You yourself said the KJV, which is the Bible translation Russell mostly used did not translate John 1:1 in that way. We cannot just change a verse to fit into our own theology which is what Russell did.

    Well my dear, if you look at the original Greek, you will see that “a’ and “an” do not exist in the Greek language, so the translators put it in.

    You ask a good question, so let me ask you what support did the translators have in putting “a” in the following verses?

    Act 12:22 “And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. “

    Act 28:6 “Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.“

    Is it because they were human? But the Greek doesn’t differentiate between human and spirit. It says

    In Acts 12:22 “the voice of GOD (THEOS) and Acts 28:6 “he was GOD (THEOS)

    How about the following:

    2Co 4:4 “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

    “the god” is HO THEOS, the same phrase in John 1:1, “and the word was with HO THEOS”. 2 Cor 4:4 refers to Satan as HO THEOS. Incidentally, John 1:1 doesn’t. it refers to Jesus as “THEOS”, “and the Word was With HO THEOS and the Word was THEOS”. Seems to be two individuals spoken of here. HO THEOS and THEOS. Jehovah and Jesus. But nothing here claims they are one and the same person or co-eternal.

    Today of course I would agree that they are of the same substance, since his resurrection, but not of the same origin.

  • RR
    RR
    Russell made an addition to John 1:1 by adding in brackets {a} when he wrote his Study in the Scripture books. The WT, a group he helped "father" then continued with this addition in brackets when they created the NWT bible to support thier own teachings. They reject the divinity of Christ and make him a much lower Archangel. The view Jesus was "created" was an Arian view and a heresy in the time of the Bible.

    Really? Where did he do that? I don't recall Russell publishing his own translation.

    RR

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