What's the big deal with Jesus' "sacrifice"? (page 5)

marmot

I'm sure Hungary's tourism industry is doing quite well but I doubt billions are going every year.

;)

Gregor

I'm sure Hungary's tourism industry is doing quite well but I doubt billions are going every year.

;) Marmot, you smart ass! LOL!

Yes, God is the Cosmic Bookkeeper, and having no other way to redeem mankind (He being only partially omnipotent) had to sacrifice his son/himself (as the only other perfect human available) to balance out Adam's perfect self being naughty. Scripturally, He could have just forgiven Adam, if he'd just waited for the "food at the right time" (head of household can forgive sins).

Gopher

Scripturally, He could have just forgiven Adam, if he'd just waited for the "food at the right time" (head of household can forgive sins).

That's right. However, if the Bible writer had told the story to include forgiveness, then he would have had to add some chapters to the story to try to explain why we don't live forever and why the world isn't perfect.

WTWizard

It is more specious reasoning to make people think Jehovah loves them so much, and so they had better be ready to make great sacrifices (as if more sacrifice was needed--if Jesus' sacrifice was so perfect, then why would more be needed?). What they don't tell you is that the marginal cost for each new person to benefit is zero. Jehovah paid nothing extra to have you included. Thus, even if He hated you, He has paid nothing extra.

How could this be? Imagine going into a buffet. There is one price that entitles you to eat as much of anything in the place that you want. The price is extremely high. But, there is one or two items that are worth the price. So you pay the high price willingly. After those few items that justified the price, having additional items will not cost you any more. A person there might notice that there are items of lesser value, and some that are totally crap. But, the presence of those crap items is not increasing your cost. Nor is the management going to have any incentive to exclude you from those crap items. In effect, after you paid for the first item, the marginal cost of additional items is zero. You can have all you want, and it will not cost you anything extra.

With this view of that "ransom sacrifice", there is no need to go all out to do infinitely more to thank that Almighty Tyrant and Freeloader for providing for you. He did not provide for you. If anything, the first person to be under the ransom sacrifice was either the apostle James or Abel; it matters not (so I won't attempt to speculate exactly who it was). Either way, everyone after the first gets in at no additional cost to Jehovah. And, since it costs Him nothing extra after the first person, there is no longer any reason to feel indebted to that almighty Freeloader.

destructo-girl

Aaargh reading this thread has made me cry.
I'm an atheist, but not a very good one yet (so is atheist the right word?) cos theres this teeny tiny nagging doubt right down deep in the darkest corner of my subconscious.

BlueSapphire, what you're saying is just like what I'm thinking and I'm rofl at that pic from What-A-Coincidence, I totally agree and I don't believe in this stuff anymore. But then there's this little voice (well not a real voice, I'm not that crazy yet) that's saying HOW DARE YOU! Jesus died for you, Jesus suffered for you and you laugh at the ridiculousness of it.

What RSMHobbit said. It's like a knife in my brain. I used to cry at the thought of Jesus suffering.

I don't believe, it's illogical, it makes no sense, there's too many contradictions. So why do I feel so damn guilty for thinking this?

My head may explode.

Destructo-Girl, on a mission to self-destruct.

R.Crusoe

And incredibly way more people have lived their whole lives generation after generation these past 2000 years without ever having heard of Jesus. If it was such a big deal God would ensure everyone knew! Christians seem to feel they have the hardwire to God simply because they happened to be amongst the ones having heard of him. Imagine what it must be like for you and all around to go from birth to death and never know the Bible. Pretty damn tricky eh - and that's because many of us have been conditioned/groomed on this stuff since childhood so that our minds see everything through 'Bible' colored spectacles.

Awakened07

So why do I feel so damn guilty for thinking this?

-If your parents had been part of a group of people who's religious ideas included the doctrine that reading books - any book - was a horrible sin, and you were told this your whole life - - you would beat yourself up about it for many years to come if you exited the group one day and started picking up books. Our conscience does have to be 'trained' like JWs say, yes - but it can also be misused and abused, by putting in guilt of things there is no reason to feel guilty about. This was a general comment, as there are many things one can feel guilty about after leaving the JWs or other groups. Some of it can be healthy to keep (guilt about hurting others), but most of it can be shed by applying new knowledge.

avidbiblereader

In a nut shell, it comes down to faith which is the center of Christianity and very appropriate Christ questioned before leaving the earth in

Luke 18:8 8 I tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when the Son of Manreturns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?”

To those with faith= It means everything

To those without faith=Nothing.

abr

zack

I never had a BIble student who understood the ransom doctrine. I would challenge any "Christian" to really explain it, not just parrot the assertions of their teachers, but really explain it to an idiot like me. I used to parrot it as well and thought I understood it. The parts that didn't make sense I simply dealt with by telling myself that "God will clear it up some day."

Even from a Biblical standpoint, the doctrine itself stands on contradictions. We inherit sin from Adam and must therefore pay the wages for HIS sin. Yet, YHWH says the sins of the fathers shall not be visited on the sons. We need salvation from something we didn't cause, yet the NT tells us we each carry our own load and stand accountable to God as INDIVIDUALS for what WE do and not for something someone ELSE does.

And as has been stated, perhaps irreverently in the view of some, but the ransom is OWED to God and PAID to GOD and yet is PROVIDED BY GOD. If you picture it as a financial transaction then GOD takes money from his left pocket and puts it into his right pocket. It all starts and ends with Him. So, why is it neccessary at all? Why is the death of a living being always necessary for the life of another?

I don't think the answers that religions give us are satisfactory and that is why the questions are asked. As for what the Bible says, the ransom doctrine was outlined by Paul, a former Pharisee who had already been conditioned to the idea of blood sacrifice, and accepted and built on the premise of inherited sin.

What's the big deal with Jesus' "sacrifice"?