Logic of God escapes me

by Amazing 27 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    In past posts I have placed God on trial by questioning two issues: 1) The issues in the Graden of Eden, and the severe punishment of the entire human race for a very minor act of eating fruit. 2) God ordering the extermination of entire cities, including every last man, woman, child, baby, and even livestock.

    Results: The result on this forum have be mixed as expected, but showed a range from suport to tryuionmg top explain these events with reasoning, logic, or plausibilities. Some felt that I might be losing my faith. Others felt that I was being hon.mest in facing tough issues, though it could affect my basic faith.

    I also asked these questions on some private forums, where the issues were not directly addressed, but instead my faith was either condemned as unchristian, or that I was risking harming the faith of the weak by posting my concerns in public. But in no case have the issues been addressed with clear thinking or some solid realistic answers.

    Literalistic View: Obviously, if one takes the Bible literally on these accounts, then the issues become almost impossible to answer. So, I have been battered at times in private forums with the claim that I am falling into the 'literalists' trap by "insisting" that the Bible be taken literally. This is not so, because I have never insisted on anything. I am just looking for some answers, regardless of how it might happen to take shape.

    Non-Literalistic View: The respondents on private forums have insisted that the Bible needs to be viewed in a non-literal way, by claiming that the account of Adam and Eve is allegorical to teach a lesson or principle. Likewise, the accounts of ancient Israel's battles that resulted in extermination of certain cities and tribes should be taken as embellished war stories where God really did not authorize such extreme actions. In otherwords, these accounts are about over zealous Jewish soldiers who ascribed responsibility to God in order to justify their actions, and to justify that God was obviously blessing their victories. Fair enough, although that is all that is ever given to me, and no real substantive discussion about how we as 21st Century Christians can reconcile this into reality.

    Problems with Allegorical Views: There are still some glaring problems with the claims that these accounts are mere allegorical lessons of principles. God's creation of the human race is not in dispute. God making the rules and being in control is also not in dispute. Here are my continued concerns:

    1. So, why then, if the account of Adam and Eve is allegorical, do we sin, get sick, grow old and Die? Is the promise of life eternal in some perfected state also to be understood as allegorical? Did Adam and Eve cause our fall into sin and death? If so, then in what way did they do this IF the genesis record is allegorical?

    2. Why such a severe punishment on innocent unborn children, regardless of whether genesis is literal or allegorical? Why do we have to suffer such a destiny simply because an allegorical Adam and Eve felt they had to do whatever their allegorical act was? Our condemnation seems to me to be rather ludicrous, because it shows that God puinishes the innocent for the sake of the guilty.

    3. But, when I have made these counter arguments, it gets tossed back at me on some private forums that I am forgetting that the account of Adam is allegorical and I am making a literal applicaltion that does not fit. Okay, then explain why I feel aches, pains, aging, sickness, and the literal fact that I will one day fall into death the same as every human that has ever lived? That is very literal and real, is it not, or is this life all a mere allegory, saomewhat like the Christian Science philosophy that this is all a dream?

    My Request: Am I making sense with my concerns? And, if so, can anyone provide some substantive discussion to help resolve and reconcile the serious contradictions between what a loving God and Father is supposed to be, and what in literal fact he has either directed, or at least permitted? What is going on here with God? Anyone care to take a stab at this?

    JW viewers please don't bug me with you insistence about darkness befalling an apostate. And Fundy types, please don't hammer me with dozens a Bible citations. I have read the Bible many times, and studied each and every book. A few soldi verses may help, but I am looking for substantive, realistic, facts about my concerns, and not a lot of nice sounding plausibilities and platitudes. - Amazing

  • Celtic
    Celtic

    Agreement with you. Please email me: [email protected]

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Yes, your concerns make sense. I would like to add another one of my own:

    Why is it necessary to explain our sickness, imperfection, and death by means
    of the story of Adam and Eve - whether allegorical or not?

    Animals also suffer sickness, imperfection, and death, many times from the
    same diseases. They also age, just like us. There is no original sin for
    animals - not even an allegorical one.

    Our condition can be explained by simple degeneration of our bodies, just like
    the animals. We have no problem accepting the aging and death of animals.
    Why can't we accept our own?

  • Deacon
    Deacon

    Id like to offer a comment if I may.

    I dont know the answers either, yet I suspect, more than suspect that the answer lies in a state of faith that only the creator will accept. I believe that when Jesus asked if he would find any faith on earth when he returned...that he KNEW that all of us would go through a searching time and have to be found...whatever...

    I dont know if the Bible is true, allegorical or a lie...and that is where we have to make a choice when and how we can...

    I know I dont believe in anointing in this time, in Christ having returned, in the GOverning Body....and in Jehovahs Witnesses being the chosen people....

    I do know that somedays we are the pigeon, somedays the statue...and we will pass like our fathers before us...

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    I would say that rather, the logic of man's explanation of god escapes me. Just because man has not been able to put down thoughts that logically describe god is not proof that there is not a god.

    I certainly do question what man has written as to the supposed thinking and actions of god. Those are quite illogical to the point of being bizarre.

    Joel

  • Julie
    Julie

    Joel said:

    :I certainly do question what man has written as to the supposed thinking and actions of god. Those are quite illogical to the point of being bizarre.

    My view too, exactly. Well said Joel.

    Julie

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    Amazing,

    I think the problem is quite analgous to the following problem; explain the motions of the planets and other bodies assuming Earth is at the center of the Universe and that the Universe rotates around Earth. At some point contradictions and inexplicable observations will manifest themselves.

    So, the confusion surrounding the questions you ask may be a result of a faulty premise.

    Lionel Hartley

  • Undecided
    Undecided

    Hi Amazing,

    You seem to be about where I am in my search for God. The bible just doesn't seem to answer my questions about God's nature and purpose of creation. The differences of attitude in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures just doesn't seem to be the same God.

    And what about the bible's description of heavenly rebelion? Has all God's creation gone bad?

    I have about given up on finding an answer that would explain why the creation lives for a while, then dies, which includes the universe.

    If you can find any substantial answers I would appreciate you letting me know. You seem to be going through the same struggle that I am.

    Ken P.

  • ISP
    ISP

    Amazing

    As always there are too many questions and too few answers. Consequently there is no point in being 'categoric' about belief. I don't believe there is absolute truth in the Bible...or any other writings for that matter. If there is a god that wants us to do anything particular....he should let us know about it. Otherwise I think we can hardly be blamed for lack of belief etc. I prefer unbelief that credulity.

    ISP

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi All: You all have made some very good comments, and expressed some similar sentiments. Runningman and Lionel attacked this from the stand point of a faulty premise. I agree that this is possible:

    "Our condition can be explained by simple degeneration of our bodies, just like the animals. We have no problem accepting the aging and death of animals. Why can't we accept our own?"

    True, it seems that animals are designed to have a limited existence. The Bible, if taken literally, suggests that humans suffer and die due to Adam's sin. If allegorical, then I am not sure what to make of it.

    Another possibility is that the Bible is written as a way to find an explanation for our suffering and death. In other words, it was written by some creative humans over time to justify our existence, our failings, our wars, our social and civil structure, and provide a way to give some hope beyond that of being a dead carcass in a grave. But, that notion seems to suggest that God is nowhere to be found, and that we simply evolved, and in our evolution, we have yet to find meaning and purpose beyond some fanciful invention of being accountable to a higher power. Maybe we are that higher power as far as sentient, self-aware beings go. Just a thought.

    Amazing

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