Logic of God escapes me

by Amazing 27 Replies latest jw friends

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Amazing

    How about looking at how our reality might hinge on reincarnation and developmental evolution. First, i will say that i'm not that knowledgeable on the topic, and secondly, i'm not 100% sure of it. But, it does have some attractive aspects. Basically, i'm putting this here to help me develop it or correct it, as the case may be.

    May i suggest that we were all preexisting spirits. Every one of us who are on this dirt ball came here for a reason, not all for one reason, each for our own reasons and purposes. If we miss it in a lifetime we try again until we acheive it. Then, after that we may choose to explore further avenues of phusical existence.

    May i suggest further that the body aging and dying is a process that was chosen by the spirits that arranged this sojourning program. May i suggest that the reason we chose these bodies to only last as long as they do may be because their controling mechanisms: the mind, nerves, dna become progressively hardwired some time after maturity is reached. This renders progress; the unlearning of old habits and the learning of new progressively harder as time goes on. Also, many people make so many bad decisions and misjudgements, that they become hopelessly screwed up in self distructive dead end lives. For them, an end is a blessing. After their spiirits pass on, they are able to review their lives, with the aid of advisers, then after an appropriate time, if time exists on that plane, they select a new life with the genetic conditions, economic conditions etc that would be of sufficient challenge for them in another lifetime. Generally, progress is made in each lifetime, but if not, it's ok, because there is infinite time in which to fulfill all possibilities.

    Some people think that we incarnate in groups, perhaps family groupings. Also, groups to accompliish certain purposes or goals. Perhaps political, scientific, or archealogical projects or experimments. They think that many of the events in our lives have been prearranged or agreed upon with others who also come here. Sometimes things work out as planned, sometimes plans are derailed, and a new round is tried later.

    Perhaps, after a sufficient amount of experience is gained, enough challengs met, enough spiritual developement taken place, the individual spirit no longer feels the need to come back here. It can then choose to stay in the earth vicinity as a higher helper being, or move on to higher spiritual levels for new types of experinces or existences.

    Just my thoughts.

  • Quester
    Quester

    Amazing,

    I think Ros may have a good point there.

    It reminds me of a quote:
    "Not everything that is faced can be changed,
    but nothing can be changed until it is faced."
    --James Baldwin

    Not that you necessarily want to change
    where you are at with the God subject.
    Just that first you need to admit where
    you are at, and then go from there.

    Do you really expect to find answers here
    on jwd? I think jwd serves a good purpose,
    but I don't look here for spiritual support
    or answers.

    I have offered to dialogue with you numerous
    times. I have also offered several references
    for personal research. I know others have
    offered this as well.

    Whatever path you choose, I hope it is one
    that makes your life happy and meaningful.

    Quester

    PS In case you forgot, my email address is
    listed in my profile.

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    SS,

    I am not 100% certain either, but I tend to agree with you on this. I read somewhere that we choose our lives and we choose our weaknesses before our incarnation so as to develop our spirit.

    When we die, we return to the spirit realm to review the incarnation and develop further. There, we are open to the true essence of God & Goddess. That is why I think that all world religions have good and bad points, and we should just find the one that we feel brings us closer to the divine and helps us in our path.

    Sirona

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Amazing,
    I am leaving town tomorrow and may be unable to respond for a while, but this post is profoundly important to me. Lets not let this die. Perhaps we can discuss it further elsewhere.

    I have questions without answers too. But worse, I have answers ( “private ideas”) that do not match the conventional questions. I think they are all pieces of an important puzzle. I do not believe it is wrong to look at the puzzle and ask what the puzzle is portraying. Questioning and searching does not betray disbelief in the existence of the puzzle nor the reality of intelligence behind the origination of the puzzle. Thanks for the post.

    Jst2laws

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Amazing.

    Ultimately a theist has to accept that there is no objective verifable or repeatable proof of god's existence. Obviously they might have subjective proof, but that's only good enough for them and those that have shared similar subjective experiences.

    The theory of god is as much a theory as evolution, but without the documentary evidence that evolution has.

    Now, your atheist cannot prove god doesn't exist. He can only point at the absence of scientific proof.

    This means we can jump from the scientific arguement to the logical arguement.

    If god exists, would we have proof?

    Well, if the general idea of a Judaeo-CHristo-Islamic god is correct, logically we would have proof.

    Our future existence depends upon our behaviour, and the god spoken of in those faiths is considered concerned and loving.

    It is unreasonable to think such a god would hide his existence from the world, or make it a subject of 'faith', especially having given us minds capable of coming up with the concept of scientific proof. If such a god failed to prove his existence, he would be unloving for punishing us for not conforming to the required standards.

    If Book-of-the-Month club can find us and deliver a personalised greeting. god could do the same, AND WOULD DO THE SAME if this were required to prove his existence.

    No ineffable plans. No mysteries. Such ideas contradict the basic principle of a god of these traditions.

    If god is not a concerned with humanity, or loving, or is an 'unknowable entity', something without personality (a creative demiurge), some manifestation of the physical reality of the Universe but without divinity or magic (like a physical force such as gravity), or some other entity removed from the Judaeo-Christo-Islamic (or indeed Hindu or Seikh or almost every other concept of god), then god may exist, as the existence of god without definative proof is a plausable possibility under those circumstances.

    However, the 'use' of such a far-removed conceptualisation of god, and the worship of such an entity is moot. If god isn't concerned with us, why should we be concerned with it?

    Thus ends my sermon 8-)

    Well, not quite; the above I believe to be a very assesment of things, what follows is a bit of fun speculation.

    Going back to the Judaeio-Christo-Islamic tradition, it is fair to say that IF such a god indeed exists, and doesn't provide proof, and then punishes us for not doing what this unproved god says we should do, then god is an asshole. An unpleasent thought for those with faith, but fairly valid.

    If such a god exists, then the role of Satan suddenly makes sense, not as the personification of evil and rebellion, but as the first creature that realised god was an asshole, and then became a freedom fighter.

    This is a fascinating possibility, and rather timely given the ongoing debate as to the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters.

    Finally, I believe this, not through bitterness against the Borg, but as a result of what I learnt about Science at University. If god existed, and I could carry on existing forever, I'd be delighted. I really like the idea of reincarnation.

    But, despite my desire that there was more than this life, there is no proof that we continue after we die, just subjective experiences and wishful speculation (again, a good arguement against the existence of an after-life in any form).

    All the above can be simply put. Elephants are hard to hide, and god is a very large elephant that no one has ever found, therefore, there probably is no elephant.

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Amazing,

    You and I have discussed these issues before. As you may recall, I strongly believe that some of your concerns, as has here been suggested might be the case, are largely based on false premises. The false premises I here refer to are these: 1) The Bible portrays Adam as "the first man" in an absolute chronological sense; 2) The Bible indicates that we are all Adam's descendants; 3) The Bible indicates that Adam was created with a "perfect" physical body that was corrupted by his act of disobedience; 4) The Bible indicates that we all die as a direct result of Adam's disobedience in Eden. All four of these premises combine to make up the doctrine of "the Fall" of mankind. However, I believe that the doctrine of "the Fall" is an incorrect understanding of Scripture.

    The fact of the matter is that the Bible does not say that Adam was, in an absolute chronological sense, "the first man." I believe that God simply used Adam and Eve, and orchestrated the events in Eden, to illustrate the unrighteous condition of all mankind. I do not believe that the writer of Genesis meant for us to understand that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. For he clearly indicated that there were people then living in the land "east of Eden" whom Cain was afraid might kill him. And the context of Genesis chapter 4 also clearly implies that it was there that Cain found a wife. (Gen. 4:14-17 ) The only place in Scripture Adam is referred to as the "first" man is in 1 Cor.15:45-47. There Adam is called "the first man." But there we also find that Jesus is called "the second man." The context shows that the writer of those words was referring to Adam as the "first" man only in his relative chronological position to Christ. In other words, since Adam came "first" and Christ came "second," Adam came before Christ.

    The doctrine of the "Fall" is largely based on what I am convinced is a misunderstanding of the apostle Paul's words in Romans 5:12-20 and 1 Corinthians 15:21,22. I believe the key to understanding Paul's words there recorded is understanding his words in Romans 5:19, as rendered in Bibles such as the Amplified Bible and even the NWT. There we read, "By one man's disobedience many were constituted sinners." To "constitute" means "to establish formally." (New American Dictionary) Adam's disobedience formally established the fact that the entire human race was incapable of living completely righteous lives. So, after Adam, whom God used as a representative of the human race, failed a simple God given test of his righteousness, God had good reason to retroactively condemn the entire human race as being deserving of the deaths they had long been suffering, and undeserving of eternal life, a gift God had not yet given to any human being. For if Adam in paradise, without a problem in the world, could not manage to obey one simple command from God, what chance does any human being have of living their entire trouble-plagued life without sinning either in word, thought or deed? No chance at all. And since we have no chance of living perfectly righteous lives we have no chance of earning eternal life by means of our own righteousness.

    I believe that is the primary lesson that was illustrated in Eden. Since human beings are less righteous than God we are not deserving of eternal life. That means all human beings have, in effect, from their births been condemned by God to die. Not because of anything Adam did, but because we ourselves all fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) However, the Bible tells us that God was willing to accept the death of His Son Jesus Christ in place of the deaths His high standards had determined we all must suffer. (Matthew 20:28; John 10:11; Romans 3:24; 1 Corinthians 6:20; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 9:26; 1 Peter 1:18,19; 1 John 1:7; 4:10; Rev. 5:9.) This is the good news presented in the pages of the New Testament. That even though God's high standards demanded our deaths as the penalty for our sins, He is now willing to accept the death of Jesus Christ in place of the deaths of all who now accept Christ's death as payment in full for all their sins. And because God accepts Christ's death as payment for the sins of Christians, He no longer considers Christians to be sinners. Rather, He considers them to be righteous ones who are now fully worthy of eternal life. And because He does, He now promises to give eternal life to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ.

    I believe that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden was also meant by God to illustrate another important lesson. The lesson that we are always in need of God's forgiveness even when we have not recently committed any "sinful" act. I believe this lesson was illustrated by Adam and Eve being totally unaware of their nakedness before God until after they had committed a blatant act of disobedience. (Nakedness is a condition always portrayed as shameful in the scriptures.) Then, suddenly, after they had "sinned" they became aware of their nakedness and felt the need to "hide from God." Just as we often only become aware of our shameful condition before God after committing some "sinful act." And just as we then often feel ashamed of ourselves and try to hide from God by withdrawing from Him by not praying or by not attending Church, etc., until we finally get over our guilt. However, the fact is, we are no more worthy to stand in the presence of a perfect God before committing a "sinful act" than we are after doing so. Just as Adam and Eve were, in reality, just as naked before they disobeyed God as they were after doing so. They just didn't realize it.

    To this some may respond, "That's not fair. If God made us less righteous than Himself, and thus 'sinful,' how can He rightly condemn us to death for being the 'sinful' way He made us?" I believe such questions are best answered with other questions. Such as these. Is God morally obligated to give eternal life to every creature he creates? Do you really think that simply because God created mosquitoes, squirrels and tuna fish He should have felt morally obligated to give them all eternal life? Maybe you don't. If you don't, why don't you? After all, God made mosquitoes, squirrels and tuna fish just as they are. How can you hold their "undeserving" condition against them? Aren't mosquitoes, squirrels and tuna fish as close to us in being "deserving" of eternal life as we are to God? Why then do some think it is wrong for God to say that we don't deserve to live forever? Maybe they just don't think it makes sense that God would create us as "unrighteous" people, and thus undeserving of eternal life, if He really wanted us to live forever. I admit that, on the surface, God's doing so does not seem to make sense. However, I believe that when we consider all of the issues involved more deeply it makes perfect sense that God chose to create us less righteous than himself, and thus undeserving of eternal life.

    I believe God created us "sinful" for a very good reason. The Bible tells us that "God is love." It also tells us that God chose to create people in his "own image." These things being so, God no doubt wanted to create people whom He could love and who could also love Him. But real love is not able to be coerced from someone through the use of force or threats. Neither is it a mere automatic or robotic response resulting from some sort of previous programming. Because of these things, I believe that in order to have loving relationships with us, God chose to create us as truly free people. Free to choose to love God and His ways or to not love God and His ways. In other words, free to do both right and wrong, free to do both good and evil.

    So, if mankind did not "fall," what did happen in Eden? I believe those who adhere to the doctrine of "The Fall" misunderstand the events which transpired in Eden. The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life." (Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from eating from "the tree of life." Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to eat from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us. Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life." Of course, that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ. For, as we have seen, God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life," only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

    Now, I will address your concern that it was not right for the God of the Bible to allow and/or order the execution of many of the residents of Canaan, the land God had promised to give to Abraham's descendants. Some have even accused God of "murdering" the Canaanites. I disagree. Why? Because "murder" is by definition a wrongful or illegal taking of human life. But what is wrong for us is not necessarily wrong for God. We can tell our children that they are not allowed to cross the street. That does not make it wrong for us to cross the street. Though it is wrong for people to take the lives of other people, it is not wrong for God to take people's lives. God gave all of us our lives. Every day of life God gives us is a gift. To some of us he gives one day. To others He gives many thousands of days. Are human parents morally required to always give all of their children the same number of gifts? Is God morally required to always give all of His children the same number of days of life? God has given us our life and He has reserved the right to end our lives at any time He chooses. Though, I do not always fully understand all of God's ways, I believe that any time God has ever taken a life He has done so for a righteous purpose. We should also keep in mind that Jesus Christ told us that everyone who has ever lived and died will be brought back to life by God. (John 5:28,29) That being the case, God has never really taken the life of anyone. He has only interrupted their lives.

    By the way, I always enjoy reading your posts. I hope all is going well for you and your family.

    Your brother in Christ,

    Mike

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Abaddon

    I like your little thesis, i guess because i see it on similar lines, although i lean a bit toward reincarnation. Maybe it's out of fear of nonexistence. Then again nde's, eastern philosophy and munroe institute suggest there is an afterlife. Nevertheless you expressed it well.

    -------

    achristian

    Hohum!

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    As I say, I like the idea of reincarnation... my girlfriend is convinced she met me in another life...

    Do you know what happens to red-necks when they die?

    They enter a cycle of reintarnation...

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

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