by Amazing 27 Replies latest jw friends
It was stated earlier that there is a problem with what humans have
written about God.
This is true. The holy books of humans are full of contradictions and the
very human thoughts of early cultures. They are obviously not the work
of an all powerful, all knowing God.
But, if all of the holy books turn out to be written by humans, then we are
stuck with a universe where God neither communicates nor interferes.
So, what's the purpose of postulating a God at all?
more questions
If there is no god, to what is this all for? Why propogation of species? why plant life? why life? Is it a one trip round type of deal? is it all for nothing?
If there is a god, why the suffering? what is it all for? why do we die? is it a a one trip round kind of deal?
now Im really having a bad day...
Hi all-
I certainly cannot explain God's nature or actions. There are things in the Bible that occur that trouble me as well. There are certain sections in the Old and New Testament that I wonder about as to how to interpret.
One thing that helps and many of you may have done this already is to research how the books that are in the Old and New Testament were chosen. The New Testament in particular has a very interesting history as to how those books were chosen to be placed in the Bible canon. And, it appears to me, that there definitely is a "canon within the canon" so to speak because there are a lot of books like Revelation, James, Jude, etc. that were controversial but made the canon anyway.
In addition, many fundamentalists groups take the position that "since the Bible is true the Gospel is true". In reality, the books of the New Testament were written over a period of time along with many other writings of the early church. The church did not come to some kind of an agreement on which books to place into the New Testament Canon until around 400AD.
In any case, the purpose of the New Testament Canon was to demonstrate to people what the norm of the Christian faith is and to fight against different heresies throughout the years past and those that would come in the future.
Jeff S.
My dearest brother, Amazing... may you have peace!
A 'funny' thing occurred this morning: I was directed to answer a very similar 'situation' for one inquiring. While the message was indeed SPECIFIC for that one, I believe that what I was given to 'share' is appropriate for what you wish to understand as well. Therefore, permit me, if you will, to restate it to you here, and please know that it is my sincerest wish that you, too, 'hear'... and get the 'sense' of it:
[i]"Do not be too hasty to judge in your heart the Holy One of Israel. For indeed, if you are seeking His love and mercy for YOUR acts, which acts you have committed in righteousness AND unrighteousness... how then can you judge His acts, all of which have been committed in righteousness? If indeed the sons wish to be shown the benefit of the doubt, how then can the sons judge as unrighteous the works of the Father?
"True, you USED to have a father who was of your flesh to discipline you, and you used to give HIM respect. Shall you not much more subject yourself to the Father of your spiritual life... and live? For your fleshly father used to discipline you according to what seem good to HIM, as you did with YOUR children; but our heavenly Father does so for our own profit, that we may partake of HIS holiness.
Hebrews 12:9, 10
"If you, although flesh, do not wish to have your hand 'checked' by your children, how can you check the hand of the Holy One of Israel? Have not your decisions of discipline seemed to YOU to be necessary for the good of YOUR household? Yet, the Holy One of Israel Himself swore in a covenant to look after His Household, Israel, and remove from it all of that which causes stumbling, as well as any enemies of that Household. Can you say, in your righteousness, then, that you would not have done the same out of your love for YOUR household?
"Take as an example the days of Noah: Was it not 'law' for the Holy One of Israel to save a righteous man? Did not JUSTICE dictate that such man, Noah, MUST be saved, even if it meant annihilation of ALL the unrighteous? Indeed, justice dictates such, by means of my Father's covenant... with the 'righteous'.
"So, please, 'soften' your heart toward the Holy One of Israel, as you wish Him to keep His softened toward you. And He will. For no matter what our works, His are always righteous... and notivated by love... FOR the 'righteous'. Just as you, a man, will do whatever necessary to save and protect the good of YOUR Household, so, too, the Holy One of Israel will not leave off from His promise to bless Israel.
"You ARE a son, by means of an anointing with holy spirit, which anointing you yourself 'wished' for... and 'asked' for. Are you not yet seeking your 'home'? If then, you were not a son, would you not already BE 'home'? For what then are you still seeking? You are seeking your 'former' place, that place from which you originated, and are desiring to return. Know it; own it... and it will be yours. In your heart... as well as in your mind.
"But remember, it is not the Father who answers to the sons, but the sons who must 'render an accounting' before the Father. Take care, then, to 'love your neighbor... including your God... as yourself'... and do not let judging in unrighteousness cover over your heart."
This was the message that I 'heard', dear Amazing, and that I related to another, just as I heard it.
And I say to you, as I said to that one, please... HEAR what the Spirit says. Our Father is NOT an 'exacting' God, as many have painted Him to be. He is a 'righteous' God; yet, His righteousness is HIGHER than our righteousness... and His thoughts are higher. He will indeed annihilate ALL of the unrighteous, for the sake of one mere righteous man. That is His 'law'.
We do not have to agree with it, any more than our children have to agree with our decisions in discipline... or punishment. Most times, however, what our children cannot see or discern at the moment of discipline, they can later. It is the same with us: what we do not understand now, we will later. It is on us, however, to 'soften' our hearts so as to HEAR discipline and HEAR righteousness... and accept its working out in us.
My Father's 'pen' cannot write on a hardened heart, dear Amazing. And as He has always told us, Israel... is a HARD hearted, HARD headed, STIFF-necked house. But it does not have to be that way. We CAN... by means of Christ... soften our hearts so as to have the Law of the Holy One of Israel... not the Law Covenant, but a NEW law, a NEW covenant, a RIGHTEOUS law... written thereon. He, however, will not soften our hearts for us; it is up to us to make ours minds... and our hearts 'over', to CIRCUMCISE them, by cutting away the flesh and its works, particularly ANGER AND CONTENTION, by means of Christ and holy spirit.
There is set before us all... a blessing... and a malediction. Life... or death. Before us all. The choice is entirely ours. If, however, we continue to look for REASONS so as not to have to serve the Holy One of Israel, and REASONS so as to not know His righteousness and REASONS so as not be sons... we will find them. For this world, which lies in the power of the wicked one... is full of such reasons.
There are only two (2) kinds of 'sons' in this universe, dear Amazing: the 'children of God'... and the 'children of the Devil'. There are no other choices. We are either the 'offspring' of one... or the 'progeny' of another. There is no other 'father'. We have, all of us, originated from the heavenly places, the 'seed' of His 'woman'. The issue, however, is not so much who are 'mother' is... the spirit realm... but who our FATHER is. Who it is that we obey, who it is that has 'fertilized' us with HIS seed: God, and thus Life, through our "Eternal Father", Christ... or Death, and thus Destruction, through the 'father of the lie', Satan.
And I now state to you, as I did to the one previous, that:
"I, myself, Shel, by means of the spirit of my Father, JAH OF ARMIES, that is in me, holy spirit, by means of our Lord JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, have spoken it to you, my dear one, just as I have heard it. Please, do not take this as 'grievous' discipline, dear one. Take as a Father's LOVE... to a son. 'Hear' what the Spirit is trying to tell you... and teach you."
I am not a 'fundy', dear Amazing. I am not even 'religious'. I am nothing more than a good-for-nothing-slave, by means of an anointing with holy spirit, and thus, I am...
YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, as well as your sister by means of holy spirit, and a slave of Christ,
Shel
Amazing,
I have had the same questions as you expressed. In fact even while still in the wts, I used to wonder why all of us supposedly have to suffer for what Adam and Eve supposedly did plus the other concerns you mentioned When I would give them deep thought they just didn't make sense to me.
Most of the people who died in the WTC just went to work that day and didn't return home. Whats the point of that being allowed to happen?
God didn't prevent that from happening either. Again, Why?
Questions, but no real answers.
But one thing is for sure: These questions definitely make the claims of all of these religious organizations such as wts false.
worf
It's interesting when you look at the difference in how the Bible has been read and understood over the years. Many many years ago, there was no doubt that when Genesis spoke of Adam and Eve, of the Creation and of the Flood, it was speaking of literal events. There was a time when the literal translation of the Bible lead people to believe that the good book was telling us that Earth was imobile and in the center of the universe, much to Gallileo's shagrin. Bit by bit parts of the Bible have gone from rock solid fact to allegory or representative story telling. It's high time, I think, that human kind relegate the whole book to the relm of myth and no longer look at it for any sort of real life guidance. Native Americans once believed in a rain God, they know better now. When will the western world put the Bible and it's God aside? You'd think we'd know better ourselves.
Hi, Amazing:
Maybe its time to force yourself to admit you are an agnostic and get on with life.
Blessings,
Perhaps its all a function of evolution. Life started here as one-celled implantations left in the shallow warms seas by agents of God. And then the agents withdrew to watch life evolve.
Well, we've evolved, but we still have the "mark of the beast" the mark of our evolutionary animal beginnings.
It would be nice to just jump through a hoop and viola, become a spirit being. But that would be something like a tadpole wishing to be a frog and cutting off its tail in the effort - when the fastest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live every moment as a tadpole loyally. And then you become a frog with out trying.
Same with us. Only way to become a spirit being is to live life loyally as a being of animal origin and take the next step in the next life. And there must be a virtual infinity of steps.
Don't despair. There's an entire universe career of adventure just ahead, or so I believe.
Frank
Hi Amazing,
I can think of a few things to add to the general genre of your logical processes. Consider a moment the thought of the creation account and making the Earth a paradise. My arguement would be that if there was a God, this being would be capable of making an incredibly safe and stable enviornment for his experimental designs (after all, wasn't man supposed to be an experiment, a prototype?)
When you look at this logic, then there immediately surfaces a whole can of worms that point out that the Earth is not a safe place to be on the large scale. Earthquakes, volcanos, tidal waves, floods, great climatic shifts, ice ages, asteroid impacts, and much more happen on a somewhat regular basis. All of these are natural processes and are destructive in nature, and endanger lives and have taken countless lives in the past.
Look at the microscopic world for another example. There are an amazing (no pun intended) number of deadly viruses and bacteriums that cover the planet. Anthrax is one of these. These developed by natural evolutionary processes but they are deadly to both man and animals. The evidence is rock solid that these viruses and bacteria have been here long before any other life on earth, so why would such dangerous "weapons" be left around?
My final point is why do we see ordered sets of complementary proofs that point to natural synergistic and causative relationships in the natural world that require no "intelligence?" Men used to think that angels were responsible for opening and closing flowers each day, now we understand it is a simple causative process that requires no outside input. You would think that if there was a God, that we would be seeing some type of evidence of personal or intelligent interaction, instead we see no evidence of anything.
It may be discomforting to think about the universe as still evolving and eventually running down and dying but it doesn't deny us the ability to live a wonderful and positive life. It is only a shift in our paradigms that makes all the difference.
Skipper
Amazing, I have listen to your long windeed discourses for over a year..it took you that long to reach the level I am at now...you of all people "Anointed Amazing", how did you respond three years ago.?
What happens to anointed ones now??? We are all screwed up , thanks to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.
I am 56 yeasrs old and wasted 35 years of my life without education but with a general contractors license still I am screwed up... My question si this You proclaimed to be anointed where are you now with the emblems? How are your children???
Rekless
