Opinion peice on Athiests

by SickofLies 203 Replies latest jw friends

serotonin_wraith

Hi Burn,
Can you help me by telling me what you feel has been missed? I'll try to answer everything for you, and I'll even admit when I'm wrong instead of posting something like a waffles picture.
Perhaps there are more atheists on JWD or perhaps not-- but that is not the point, is it?
You're right, the majority of people believing something does not make it true. Posting a graph of the number of Christians in the world in the other thread must have just been a response to someone who said Christians weren't the majority, and not something to back up Christian beliefs. I hope so anyway.
You said our universe was caused, then the question came up of whether that cause was natural or supernatural. The answer is nobody knows. That's the honest answer. But you claim you do know, and more than that, you claim to know which specific supernatural cause it was (Yahweh) and I presume you also claim to know what Yahweh wants of us and what his plans are.
Wow.
Is it rational to believe that? No. There's no way you can know.
It should go like this:
1. Everything that has a beginning has a NATURAL cause.
2. Our universe began.
3. Therefore, our universe had a NATURAL cause.
If you can show one thing within our universe with a supernatural cause, then your argument holds weight.
nvrgnbk

Nvrgnbk, do you agree that Theism is a rational, and not a ridiculous, belief?
I do not.
Here's why. If by theism, you're referring to knowledge and intellectual and moral acceptance of the existence of an all-knowing and all-powerful entity with personality, as described in the Judeo-Christian Bible or the Qur'an, I can find no reason to subscribe to it.
If that deity were real, His presence would universally affect our experience, without reliance on ancient texts.
I do admit that belief in that deity has affected our experience. It has shaped the culture I grew up in, so it has affected me as I am a product of the culture I have been exposed to.
I admit the possibility of all things being somehow connected as energy, each thing affecting other things, albeit in an infinitessimally minute way. Nothing supernatural about that. To call that Oneness or inter-connectedness "God" is not in keeping with the most widely held understanding of the word.
It is the concept of God as a unique entity, all-powerful and all-knowing, with personality that I have moral and intellectual problems with.
Your unwillingness to define this God you're so fervently attempting to produce suggests to me that you might not believe either, Burn.
Once again, it seems you want to suggest that there is a something.
That does nothing for me.
BurnTheShips

Posting a graph of the number of Christians in the world in the other thread must have just been a response to someone who said Christians weren't the majority, and not something to back up Christian beliefs. I hope so anyway.
It was. There weren't always that many Christians you know.
You said our universe was caused, then the question came up of whether that cause was natural or supernatural. The answer is nobody knows. That's the honest answer. But you claim you do know, and more than that, you claim to know which specific supernatural cause it was (Yahweh) and I presume you also claim to know what Yahweh wants of us and what his plans are.
Without getting into who the Deity is and what its attributes are; to deny a theist explanation for the original Cause puts us in a quandary. For decades scientists have noticed that several of the basic physical constants of the Universe must fall within very narrow limits if there is to be the life. For instance, if the force of gravity were even a little bit more powerful, all stars would be blue giants (and hence unable to support an earth-like planet). If gravity were just a bit weaker, all stars would be red dwarfs. Either way, you would not be here to ask these questions. Ditto for for the weak and strong nuclear forces. A little stronger or weaker or with slightly different properties life, at least our sort of life (which is the only we know exists), could not have developed. Ditto for electromagnetism. There is also the "flatness problem". The existence of life also seems to depend very delicately upon the rate at which the universe is expanding. It has been observed that the rate of expansion of the Universe is calibrated to an incredibly precise degree: just slighly slower, and the Universe would have recollapsed, just slighly faster and we would have no stars, galaxies and planetary systems. There are a large number of "dials", and all have to be calibrated to within a very narrow range for us to even be here debating the issue.
Is it rational to believe that? No. There's no way you can know.
How do you know 2+2 is always 4? Could it be 5 sometimes?
It should go like this:
1. Everything that has a beginning has a NATURAL cause.
2. Our universe began.
3. Therefore, our universe had a NATURAL cause.
If you can show one thing within our universe with a supernatural cause, then your argument holds weight.
You contradict yourself. The Universe is the "Natural". The "Natural" began with the Universe. There was no "Natural" before the Universe. If all natural things had a natural source, then the Universe would be infinite, because there would be an infinite progression of cause and effect back in time. Nearly all of the scientific data confirms that the universe had a beginning, so you put yourself add odds with your Deity.
Burn
BurnTheShips

If by theism, you're referring to knowledge and intellectual and moral acceptance of the existence of an all-knowing and all-powerful entity with personality, as described in the Judeo-Christian Bible or the Qur'an, I can find no reason to subscribe to it.
You are confused. I am not referring to anything other than the term. I am referring to theism. I am not speaking of the Bible or the Quran here. Look the word up if you want to discuss it. Here I will save you the trouble.
If that deity were real, His presence would universally affect our experience, without reliance on ancient texts.
I believe it does.
It is the concept of God as a unique entity, all-powerful and all-knowing, with personality that I have moral and intellectual problems with.
Well, those are your problems Nvrgnbk, not mine - and you have yet to demonstrate whether those problems preclude the existence of a Creator. Maybe we could discuss in another thread?
Your unwillingness to define this God you're so fervently attempting to produce suggests to me that you might not believe either, Burn .
I believe.
Once again, it seems you want to suggest that there is a something .
That does nothing for me.
That is not the point. The evidence suggests there is a something. Whether it "does anything for you" has no bearing in this context.
Respectfully, (I do respect you I hope I have not been to caustic).
Burn.
serotonin_wraith

Burn,
It was. There weren't always that many Christians you know.

Aha, well how do you feel about Islam being the fastest growing religion? If the number of Muslims ever outnumber Christians, will you be switching religions?
Without getting into who the Deity is and what its attributes are; to deny a theist explanation for the original Cause puts us in a quandary.

I'll stop you there. I don't deny it. I say we don't know.
The dials argument- what about the multiverse theory? With many universes, it makes sense that some (even one) would get it right (for life on earth only, it seems). With the god theory, how much more improbable would it be for something like that to exist? How many dials would have to be just right for a god to exist? If you say god just is, then I'll say the universe just is the way it is because it just came out that way.
You contradict yourself. The Universe is the "Natural". The "Natural" began with the Universe. There was no "Natural" before the Universe. If all natural things had a natural source, then the Universe would be infinite, because there would be an infinite progression of cause and effect back in time. Nearly all of the scientific data confirms that the universe had a beginning, so you put yourself add odds with your Deity.

You assume our universe is the only one. The death of one could cause a new one, there could be many existing at the same time. We don't know. A recent theory is that universes expand away from us on the other side of black holes. The rational answer is nobody knows, stop acting as if you do.
BurnTheShips

Aha, well how do you feel about Islam being the fastest growing religion? If the number of Muslims ever outnumber Christians, will you be switching religions?
You just don't get it do you? I clearly said that numbers have no bearing.
I don't deny it. I say we don't know.
But you have denied it! Repeatedly! Recently! Over and over again! Do you want me to link you your posts and threads here at JWD? Now that there is a logical problem you can't solve you change your tune. That is either intellectually dishonest on your part, or you have just now changed your mind and are no longer atheist but agnostic.
The dials argument- what about the multiverse theory? With many universes, it makes sense that some (even one) would get it right (for life on earth only, it seems).
Produce one shred, one miserable pitiful scrap of empirical evidence that there are Universes other than our own. Go ahead. I DARE YOU. Otherwise you are deluded if you believe that.
You assume our universe is the only one.
You appear to assume our Universe is not. In the light of the evidence, how could you possibly do that? By your own standards, you are deluded.
The rational answer is nobody knows, stop acting as if you do.
Please don't tell me how to act, I got enough of that as a JW.
Burn
nvrgnbk

Well, those are your problems Nvrgnbk, not mine -
LOL!
I don't see them as problems.
and you have yet to demonstrate whether those problems preclude the existence of a Creator.
I think what you affectionately refer to as my "problems" have everything to do with the existence of a Creator.
The term suggests an entity, right?
Entity is where I get blocked, for the reasons I mentioned.
Maybe we could discuss in another thread?
Unless SickofLies protests, I think here is fine.
Whether it "does anything for you" has no bearing in this context.
Very true. Poor choice of words on my part.
The evidence suggests there is a something
I have no problem with that.
The problem is with a someone.
I do respect you
Ditto.
I hope I have not been to caustic
Not at all.
Very pleasant, to be sure.
serotonin_wraith

Burn,
You just don't get it do you?

A misunderstanding then. Please use your Christian morality to forgive me.

-
and not something to back up Christian beliefs
-It was.
But you have denied it! Repeatedly! Recently! Over and over again! Do you want me to link you your posts and threads here at JWD?

Yes, please show me where I have said a god does not exist.
That is either intellectually dishonest on your part, or you have just now changed your mind and are no longer atheist but agnostic.

Everyone is agnostic (without knowledge) because nobody knows. An atheist does not believe in a god, which isn't the same as saying a god does not exist.

Produce one shred, one miserable pitiful scrap of empirical evidence that there are Universes other than our own. Go ahead. I DARE YOU. Otherwise you are deluded if you believe that.

I don't have to. All I have to do is show there is another explanation than the god theory. You're the one saying you KNOW it's a god. I say I don't know. But if you're interested in the black hole theory, here's two pages on it-
http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12853-black-holes-may-harbour-their-own-universes.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/white_hole_030917.html
You appear to assume our Universe is not. In the light of the evidence, how could you possibly do that? By your own standards, you are deluded.
I don't assume there are many universes. I don't assume ours is the only one. Until evidence comes in, I don't know. I can wait. It appears you cannot.

Please don't tell me how to act

Looks like you're telling me how to act now. Hey look, believe what you want. But if you want to talk about it in a forum, you have to be prepared for those who don't agree with you to state their case.
BurnTheShips

Unless SickofLies protests, I think here is fine.
Maybe another time.
If you think that God as an impersonal force, at least you are in good company. I love that guy, do you know that he was shunned and kicked out of the Amsterdam Jewish community for apostasy? Very like the JW practice!
Cheers,
Burn.
Billzfan23

So atheists or humanists who advocate their beliefs are really just trying to ensure a better future for everyone and get people to think carefully before accepting any ideas being presented to them.
I am actually trapped between being an atheist and a dyslexic. I really don't think that there is a true DOG.

Opinion peice on Athiests

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