Greetings from a recovering mormon (page 9)

Double Edge

I have no dog in this fight, HOWEVER, I've been to many LDS meetings and I've never heard them discuss Hellfire and damnation. In fact, I've asked my lds friends and they said they don't believe in hell as a literal place, rather a state of being seperated from God. my 2 cents.... let the games continue.......

ninja

I hear the peoples temple are making a comeback

Double Edge

I hear the peoples temple are making a comeback

quick.... hide the Kool-aid.

FormerMormon

Ninja,

I enjoy the light banter on whose was worse. I think for recovering cult members, we realize that the mind and the imagination can be a terrible jailer. Our leaders abused the power of belief and doctrine and helped us create hells of our own making.

I can understand why recovering ex cult members would gather at this forum, but why would active LDS be here? Are they looking to redirect from one cult to another? I don't understand the motivation.

Regarding being at meetings and not hearing HFdamnation AT THAT TIME. The mormons have a saying about milk before meat. They like non members to see the lighter side before the heavier stuff is laid on. Further, it is taught that the Lord WILL NOT allow "the prophets" to lead us astray. Thus, as a believing MORmON, you need only come across one speech/sermon (or a hundred) that has HFD. At that point, you are required to believe it, for it is true, from a prophet, and he cannot lead you astray.

dfj908wdjnmjue45## (Does a Marie flop on the floor, after Michael leaves the stage)

Qcmbr

You challenged me and so I'm doing a thing I hate - line by line bitchin'

I was born in the lds church, am in 40's, returned missionary, married in the temple, still active and HATING IT.

OK so we know you are emotionally led at this point. Hate is rarely a logical route though it is often useful for making extreme actions.

I was horribly scarred in primary(youth group) at the age of 5 with a hell fire damnation sermon.

Primary isn't a youth group - primary is for children aged 3 - 12

Youth is for children aged 12 - 18

The terminology 'Youth' is very specifically applied within LDS culture to teenagers, http://www.lds.org/youthresources/0,11378,1909-1,00.html

Hell fire - Wikipedia gives a very plain explanation of LDS hell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Perdition - a place where people CHOOSE to go - the overwhelming vast majority of people be they good or evil are redeemed into a place of glory.
I lift from this Joseph Smith's comment on how to get there:

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.[4]

i.e. Peter, James and John could get there you or I (not having had the heavens opened or actually knowing God) could not in our current state. When I was 5 I was not contemplating the intricacies of hell but you were obviously advanced.

For weeks I remember being consumed with fear... knowing I MUST FORCE MYSELF TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO AVOID THE HELL THEY MENTIONED.

See above - it is impossible to get there for most everyone.

The brain damage got worse at 7 (grandma died)

'brain damage' nope - I have a friend who has just got brain damage he can hardly walk and can't talk - your whine doesn't even figure.

when I was introduced to the horribly irresponsible and poorly defined subject of becoming a son of perdition.

Wasn't that at age 5??? We don't have a traditional hell - we have an outer darkness described above and often likened to fire and brimstone. You can't possibly be describing the lowest glory (Telestial) to which the wicked will go because that is a wonderful place.

(No forgiveness if you deny the Holy Ghost--cast into outer darkness) I seriously heard voices "denying the Holy Ghost", and scarring the S**T out of me.

No - I'm no doctor but maybe you need to check this out.

Had I become a SOP??? I created a desired "righteous self" and a much feared "wicked possibility self".

Definately see someone - dual personalities aren't normal.

Suicide, and the like, were feared potentialities, not that I wanted it, but it was part of my feared possible wicked self. My mind could never "make the deal" and allow myself to think I was righteous, when logic dictated otherwise.

OK so far we have a very, very disturbed childhood - non of this is attributable to LDS theology (I can't talk about over zealous authority figures in your life)

I have never committed any of the church "biggies", except when I fail to do hometeaching

Hometeaching is a calling (church job) not always given out to all active male members over a certain age to visit church members once a month to deliver a short message and make sure they are OK- failing to do home teaching is not a 'biggie'(adultery or murder are biggies) - our local unit normally visits 10% of our assignments. Big thrills.

and thereby assuming their blood and sins for three generations.

Not visiting one of the old widows in the ward and checking she's fine once a month is fairly lame but not considered worthy of this weird blood guilt thing you've got going on. You are cooking here - where you perhaps in some exotic breakaway LDS sect?

Mission was HELL. I was a workaholic, but could never could become "THE MACHINE" I was told I should be.

OK - now I hear you - a mission is really hard. It takes dedication, guts and a certain ability to keep going when you are feeling at your lowest. It also has incredible highs and character strengthening opportunities. You seem to be a glass half empty type of guy.

I had been too scared to leave the church, even though it was a consistent reminder of what a worm I am.

I am getting that drift brother.

Desperate to find answers, I turned to FARMS (an apologetics group affiliated with BYU). While researching different subjects on hell fire damnation, I come across apologetics for the Book of Abraham, Kinderhook, Zina and think WTF??? I've never heard this before.

And you served a mission where exactly?????? I had this stuff served up regularly by the friendly born agains. You found this out at 40 odd?

For awhile, I tried to justify Zina's, Brigham and Joseph's polyandry with "we are children. God is the adult and can do adult things, like polyandry... or even the conception of Jesus". In the back pages of LDS doctrine, Brigham Young taught that Jesus was concieved by the physical UNION of a presumably married father god and the single girlfriend of a mortal man(Mary). --The very definitions of adultery and fornication.

"presumably married father god" - remind me - you did go to the temple right?

I am glad I wasn't Joseph, Mary's other sex partner.

Huh?

Joseph Smith shared other men's wives. What is it with the name Joseph and wife sharing anyway??? I have no feelings of marital inadequacies, but if I knew my new brides (Mary) last lover was GOD, I think I might just be a little intimidated. Ladies, you know once you have HADA GOD, you can never... (and you JW's thought you had some whacky doctrines)

God wasn't Mary's lover. Speculating on Joseph's state of mind is about the most Mormon thing I've seen so far.

I then start reading writing from the founders, Jefferson, Franklin and Thomas Paine (blessed be his name). I start to think, maybe the church is not AS TRUE as it has been presented to me.Then an amazing thing happened, I STARTED FEELING LEVELS OF SANITY I HAVE NEVER FELT BEFORE IN MY LIFE.

Was this the wicked FM or the good FM speaking here? I'm joshing you but seriously you sound as though you need a good secular counselling session.

I admitted the possibility that it might not be true. Anymore when I go to church(with the wife), I look around and think how pathetic it is.

This fits in with your hate, lack of backbone(ooo I am getting catty:), inability to identify metaphor from reality and enhanced emotional reasoning. Pathetic isn't a good description of good people worshipping together IMO. I get it - you no longer believe and your still re-programming your brain by deliberately pointing out the perceived bad and how much better you feel. I did something similar when I broke up with my ex. Its part of our coping mechanism but get some perspective mate - the LDS church spends most of its effort teaching a very single minded message - love your family. If you missed that and can only see 'pathetic' I'm sorry - you missed the good bits and keep chewing the pips.

The wife is TBM and whenever I bring up church history she SCREAMS "I don't know, I wasn't there, I don't care... the church is true". Strangely, when she blows up about this, she usually comes back within the hour very lovey dovey. I am looking at how to phase out and keep the family intact.
I DONT WANT MY POSTERITY TO HAVE THE S**T SCARED OUT OF THEM AS I WAS.

Frig' you scare me with this cr*p. When I teach my kids I comfort them, show them how loved they are and how they can overcome life's challenges positively. I hope for your kid's sakes you don't teach them this warped stuff.

I do miss the assurance of an afterlife, validity of eternal families, celestial kingdom, etc. I want them to be true, but can't see how they can be, given the mountain of evidence, and the character of the "revelators" who restored these "truths".

Hang on - I only just got used to you hating the pathetic LDS cult. Make your mind up - wanting this to be true is just going to tear you up.

I recently read an article on how organized religion CAUSES insanity.

Stop there don't do it...

I bear witness that I know that the article is true and that organized religion causes mental illness and I say these things in the name of Thomas Paine, Amen.

Ah pants - you did it! you offloaded your personal weakness onto an external entity to justify yourself. Organised religion itself doesn't cause mental illness IMO any more than any other institution. Logically think this through - you may actually already have been suffering mental illness (in which case you would look for its cause in whatever circumstances you might find yourself), someone else may have traumatised you (only you know) but without selectively pointing out these so called illness inducing doctrines I challenge you to show how the vast corpus of LDS teaching - with its emphasis on self improvement, full living, family closeness, education , career, friends and sociality is conducive to mental illness. You can't quote any of the stuff you found at 40 since you've already shown how that didn't cause anything other than the excuse to give up.

Junction-Guy

QCMBR, plain and simple, what is the official teaching of the Mormon Church on the existence of hell? Do they believe like the JW's that it is just a state of non-existence? or do they believe it will be a place of actual conscious punishment?

SusanHere

Thank you, Qcmbr, for your detailed, line by line rebuttal of FM's ravings. Let's hope it wasn't totally wasted effort but that at least some will benefit from your excellent efforts. Your advice to FM to seek counseling is more than justified by his own words and peculiar version of a most improbable life story.

I read a lot of strange, silly, ignorant, or just plain mean-spirited comments about Mormons on this board, but choose to respond to only a few. Mostly I just let people believe whatever they choose and give them the benefit of the doubt. Most people just don't know what Mormons are really like, so they are simply repeating something they heard someone else say, or relating some incident as fact but which was actually a misunderstanding. I choose to believe that most people are basically kind and good hearted when given a chance.

FM's postings, though, went far beyond the norm. Claiming the credibility of former membership, therefore, insider knowledge, he gave next to nothing of Mormon doctrine or lifestyle that could possibly be factual. Instead he entertained everyone with lurid fantasy, half truths, and outright misinformation.. Dare I say ... lies?

This is not your typical "a neighbor who used to be a Mormon told me...." story. This guy is claiming credibility. And he doesn't have it. Nothing in his posting has a ring of truth. Statement after statement is easily shot down.

Qcmbr could have doubled his comments and still not covered it all. He hit the highlights, though, and very well. FM's a poser. Or a deeply troubled person. Or both. Whatever his problems, Mormon doctrine and lifestyle were not the cause.

SusanHere

Paralipomenon

And naturally, any current JW would say that JW apostates are posers and unknowledgeable because what they say isn't in line with the official doctrine.

What FM is saying is contrary to what is currently taught, but then again, what we say about witnesses is justified by apologists as well.

How any ex-witness could join the mormon faith or vice versa is completely beyond me.

FormerMormon

Paralipomenon , actually what I am saying IS actively taught. Else, why the explosion in exmo sites/memberships? About a year ago, in testimony meeting, a boy stood up and said he knew we had to be good or go to hell. Everyone chuckled. I nearly cried. Here I was, 30 something years ago. I'm ashamed to say I didn't stand up scream at everyone for scaring the shit out of this young boy. It isn't funny. Words and ideas mean things. Some people are actually listening to and believing what is said.

undercover

How any ex-witness could join the mormon faith or vice versa is completely beyond me.

I'm curious as to how active, believing Mormons can spend time on an ex-JW board and not see the similarities between the JW religion that is constantly exposed as f'd up and the religion that they are devoted to and support wholeheartedly.

Greetings from a recovering mormon

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