The Borg is Hounding Me Now !

by Maddie 42 Replies latest jw friends

Atlantis

Maddie:
Just in case!
To Whom It May Concern,
I have decided that I will not formally disassociate myself from the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or from Jehovah’s Witnesses in general. I came to this decision for several reasons. First, there is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the legal department of the Watchtower Society rather than serving any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeon-holed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with the real issues involved. Also, I have no problem with the P________ Congregation or its members. My disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings and writings contained in publications that are produced and in oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and it’s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and the International Bible Students Association.
The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain matters and to secure and protect what I consider basic human rights in dealing with agents of the multinational, multi-billion dollar Watchtower corporations.
Since you have asked me to appear before a judicial committee to face charges of apostacy, there are a few things that I must ask for and which I feel must be clarified before I will even consider meeting with a judicial committee.
1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.
2. I shall be notified in writing of the exact purpose of the meetings.
3. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
4. If any other agency other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in the their behalf.
5. I shall be notified in writing as to my status as a member of any and all of the organizations for which the committee is acting or to which the committee will report.
6. I insist that the judicial committee immediately cease, and in the future desist from any actions toward or against me in behalf of any corporation or organization of which I am not a member.
7. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me, the names of persons making such accusations and the substance of any evidence against me.
8. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the judicial process.
9. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.
10. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the judicial committee as an observer. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the judicial committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.
11. During the meetings with the judicial committee I and/or my observer will be allowed to take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
Additionally, if the judicial committee takes any judicial action against me :
12. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
13. In this written communication the judicial committee must state exactly on whose behalf they have taken the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
14. If the judicial committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies of reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
15. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.
16. Before I will meet with an appeal committee, that committee must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the appeal committee and who each one represents: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or it’s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named
17. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication or attempt on the part of any of the members of the original judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to, in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.
18. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the appeal process.
19. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during the all meetings between me and the appeal committee. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the appeal committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.
20. During the meetings with the appeal committee I and/or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
21. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
22. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
23. If the appeal committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the appeal committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
24. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee that I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I also understand that it is
necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah’s Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah’s Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.
25. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privilege and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of my disfellowshipping, speeches, talks, or any other communication, written or oral, public or private.
I fully realize that you may be unwilling or that the Watchtower corporations will not allow you to comply with the preceding.
I respectfully await your written response. N.
drew sagan

I just feel that we need to stand up to them if they are eventually going to be brought down
Right now this issue is at the center of your world. You see the Elders as the aggressors (which they can be) and also see your family trapped in the borg.

Understand the order of the day. What the Elders decide to do with you at this point will eventually decide what your family does with you. Don't forget also that no matter how much you try to "take down" these Elders nothing is really going to happen. They have their defenses set and all you will stir up is divisions and frustration on both sides.

I don't know what kind of relationship you want to have with your family. If you want to continue to have a relationship with them then the best advice you got was to talk this over with your husband and give him the control. He is not JW and can get this Elder to back away. The Elder has no power over him (but jgnat may be right about wanting to use him to control).
dawg

Maddie is a strong lady and will do what's best.... but here's my thinking
Loubelle is right in my mind, Maddie has already let the cat out of the bag, how can she go back and run from the elders? WHy is it that the brainwashing continues long after we've made up our minds... the elders coming aren't coming to kill Maddie,t hey're coming to discuss why she's now questioning God/the GB... one and the same to this group of fools...
Since her son already knows the deal, and probably is the one that turned her in, I'd say her first beef is with him...I'd call him and ask him striaghtout if he talked to the elders about what they discussed. Ask him if his own mother can ask him a question without it turning into a judicail matter? Ask him why you can't think differently than he given the informaiton that you've recieved which you feel is conclusive.... ask him if he's trying to end their relatioship over the fact that you now view the GB as just men. Or something to that effect...Use you love for him as a tool to get him thinking, you never know but do you want your gandkids to stay in this cult?
The when the elders call, don't go running into the back room and hide behind your husband; make sure he's there and stand firm, make them get on the defensive. They're worng after all not you.... and most of all Maddie, I've come to admire you, I wish you the best... Huff
R.Crusoe

Your avatar suggests you are UK side! Radio 2 drive time 5pm till 7pm has Chris Evans DJ ing and his very feminine accomplice is always introduced with a theme tune 'You can never out fox the fox!' Hope you can keep that in mind the next time your being hounded!
WTWizard

The worst thing you could do is get in the meeting alone without support and meekly go along with what they want. Chances are, they are not going to allow anyone else to support you, and that includes husband (they don't allow a 8-year-old to have parents present after they forced him to get baptized at age 6, and then he errantly saluted the flag and someone ratted him out). You should strongly insist on having the husband there to support you as a condition of having the meeting at all.
Another option is to not show up for it. They are going to disfellowship you for whatever it is that they sought out to do, but at least that way they are not going to be able to further harass you and make you feel guilty for something you had the right to do, wasting hours and hours of your time in the process. You could try making flimsy excuses for not showing up, or you could make it difficult to schedule an appointment and then not offer any suggestions. Sometimes that works, since they are too busy hunting others in field circus to worry about remembering (and they are usually tired from too much field circus).
At this point, switching congregations is not a reasonable option. That would have worked earlier, since then it would create problems for them to decide whose job it is to hound you. But, once they have you singled out, trying to switch congregations is likely to be fruitless since they will transfer the problem with the other congregation. Exception: You might be able to get away with this if you move beyond the hounder-hounder's territory. Moving out and not leaving a forwarding address (or leaving a bad one) will leave them on a wild goose chase, and they would never find you (of course, when the Witlesses in the new territory find you, just tell them you're not interested or lead them to an apostate web site).
Either way, there is a good chance you are going to get disfellowshipped. The question is how much additional problems you are willing to endure with it. The more they see you stand to lose, the higher they are going to make the hurdle. Sometimes it's better to bite the bullet and either not show up or show up with a few swear words and apostate literature, knowing you are going to get kicked out, than to try to "repent" and live with the uncertainty that the hounders are probably either going to disfellowship you anyways or put you on probation, monitoring everything you do for the next XXX years.
Maddie

Atlantis - Ta for the letter, It's brilliant and I may use it
Dawg - I think you have hit the nail on the head about my son "turning me in". I spoke to him last week andhe got worked up about me believing "other people" as he put it, rather than the borg. I will speak to him again as you suggest and do my best to appeal to him as his mother and not an evil apostate. I have printed out the news item about the paedophiles and the borg knowing about it, so I shall show it to him.
R. Crusoe - I shall listen in to Radio 5
Drew sagan - I understand what you are saying but sometimes I really want to bring the borg down !!!!!!!
Inbyathread - Thanks for trying to warn me about the machinations of the borg, they really ate the pits
Maddie
PoppyR

Hi Maddie
I'm sorry I didn't get to meet you Saturday, Sam was saying what a great person you are.
I'm in a similar situation and find there are so many different views and opinions on it. I too decided I would never lie if asked directly, but this does not mean I am actively seeking to be DFed as I have too many friends and family that I know will Shun me and I'd rather avoid that if possible.
I know from experience that if an elder wants to talk to a sister about a judicial matter he talks to the husband first as 'her head'. This made me steam at the time, as someone went to the elders about me some time ago saying they had seen me do something (it wasn't even true!) and the elders approached my husband rather than me! Of course if the roles were reversed, the elders could go straight to the man, he could deny it and his wife would never know... some justice.
Anyway, long and short... I would try and avoid the situation as long as possible. Use whatever excuse, some elders will still push the situation until they 'get' you, others will give up. In my case they gave up and I have been left alone.
If the worst should happen, you have friends and family here, and we'll never cut you off for telling us the truth.
Thinking of you
Poppy
tinker

Maddie, my heart goes out to you. This is a most sad time. The loss of core level beliefs compares to losing a loved one. Ah but time does heal.
In the first 6mo after our last meeting, we had elders, family members and dubs come around about once a week. We never refused any visit. They would get around to the JW topic only after small talk and then we would just say, 'thank you so much for your concern, we appriciate you kindness'. That was it, not difficult. A few times an elder would be more direct or ask if we still considered ourselves JW. I would say, 'why do you ask' and if pushed 'my relationship with Jehovah is as strong as ever' or heres a good one 'I make it a matter of prayer'
I am not a expert in the area but I don't think they will DF just for not going to meetings. Only if you are 'causing divisions in the congergation' by speaking to one after another of your research and the 'truth about the Troof' would they have reason to form a judicial committee.
We have been able to maintain our relationships with family and even some JW friends. No one shuns us. Yes, when we run into a JW at Costco or resturants they are often cool but most still say 'hello' and not much else.
After a few months they give up and then you wonder if they ever cared at all. We have not had any 'visits' now for over a year.
I hope our experience is of some help. Good Luck
momzcrazy

Maddie,
You've told your family right? Your husband supports you I can tell. In my mind meeting with the elders only reinforces the control they feel they have over people. You are playing by rules you no longer support or agree with. I told my kids it didn't matter what the elders did or thought, they are men. I only care about what my family thinks and what God thinks. You may need to DA yourself to stop the hounding. My sis just did, and told them the no trespassing sign on the door was for them.
But you may want to explain why you've left. I'm just done explaining myself to them.
Good Luck,
momz
Wasanelder Once

The Borg is not an individual that can be brought down, it is a dogma that exists in individuals. You cannot take it down, it must crumble from within. You may "take it down" from controlling your life and that is all. Unfortunately you have a foot in both worlds with your family. The choice is not whether you want to believe their shit and submit to them, its whether your relationship with your family captured by this concept of evil is worth playing the games necessary to retain. I faded, don't believe a word of it, but have successfully played the game so as to be dead inactive and not even contacted by the shepherds of the flock. Of course it helps that I was and elder I suppose, they know I know their BS. If you want to keep family, let your husband intervene and answer for you as to your availability. Don't engage in any doctrine conversations, just be unavailable. They will give up if they aren't trying to get further info to witch hunt. Its easy if you don't want to do any of that, just DA. Weigh your choices carefully. Thanks for posting and good luck. W.Once

The Borg is Hounding Me Now !

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