by skyking 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
I was asked today to explain this verse, a man at lunch said I have been told you are knowledgeable of the bible. He asked me to read Ezekiel 20:25 which say's "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live"
He asked how could we know if what is in the bible is good. He said he thought GOD could not to tried by evil and that GODS WORD should be good at all times.
Any comments
The CEV (oops formatting) may shed some more light on it. I guess that alludes to the fact that the Law was there to get people to understand that they weren't perfect.
Ezekiel 20:21-28 CEV
[21]
But the children also rebelled against me. They refused to obey my laws and teachings, and they treated the Sabbath as any other day. I became angry and decided to punish them in the desert.[22]
But I did not. That would have disgraced me in front of the nations that had seen me bring the Israelites out of Egypt.[23]
So I solemnly swore that I would scatter the people of Israel across the nations,[24]
because they had disobeyed my laws and ignored my teachings; they had disgraced my Sabbath and worshiped the idols their ancestors had made.[25]
I gave them laws that bring punishment instead of life,[26]
and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the LORD, was punishing them.[27]
Ezekiel, tell the people of Israel that their ancestors also rejected and insulted me[28]
by offering sacrifices, incense, and wine to gods on every hill and under every large tree. I was very angry, because they did these things in the land I had given them!
AlphaOmega Thanks but still does not answer How do we know if GOD is lying to us? In the above verse the bible say he said he does and this is done for not the good but for bad.
Look at what I have found while doing some research on this 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
God cannot prove true if God deceives anyone at all; God is responsible for evil in this scripture. I guess I better be careful and not believe everything he say's.
Within the context:
21 " 'But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. 22 But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their fathers' idols. 25 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; 26 I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'
This suggests that it was part of God's 'punishment' for israel disobeying His original laws.
Firstly they would be scattered amongst other nations (v23)
Secondly they were 'given over' to the statutes that were not good and laws they couldn't live by - I'd understand this as meaning that God allowed them to follow the other religions and obey their laws which were not beneficial, rather than His - so that eventually (v26) they will realise that god's laws were better to follow.
This is indeed a very interesting vestige of a "missing link" in the history of Israelite religious and moral ideas, at a stage when human sacrifices were no longer regarded as acceptable but had not yet been erased from the memory of official worship (especially through the narrative trick of substituting the Levites + a redeeming tax to the firstborn in the Torah, cf. Leviticus and Numbers). The provisional solution was to consider them bad commands from Yhwh, given as a punishment for not keeping the "good" ones.
It is clear if we are to take this scripture exsactly as it was penned then God is responsible for lying, doing evil.
Try putting it into parent-child context.
If you have an adult child, legally allowed to drink alcohol. If they insisted on going out every night getting pi**ed out of their minds, would you forcefully stop them?
If the answer is 'yes', then you are denying them their right to make their own choice as an adult and therefore a free citizen.
If the answer is 'no', does that make you an evil person?
Also, I don't understand the lying inference - if God had warned them what would happen and they ignored it anyway, then its entirely their own fault is it not?
Thank you, Narkissos.
If you have an adult child, legally allowed to drink alcohol. If they insisted on going out every night getting pi**ed out of their minds, would you forcefully stop them?
Notice it does not say "I let them do this" or I could not stop them. It say "I gave them"
It sorta reminders me when Jesus say at Matthew 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” That was right at 2000 years ago. Never happened
It sorta reminders me when Jesus say at Matthew 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” That was right at 2000 years ago. Never happened
Yes it did. To fulfill the covenant of a kingdom of priests based upon the 12 tribes, 12,000 from each tribe the nation of Israel had to be intact during the second coming. That's impossible with the Jews no keeping records and scrambling everywhere. There was no way to fulfill this, therefore, than to have select members from the each of the 12 tribes who could prove their lineage with records in the 1st century to literally live down to our day and never die. Paul was chosen as one of these people and that's why he uses the term "SURVIVE down to the Lord's day" because it would be a long time and clearly after those who were not chosen would have been long dead and gone and would have to be resurrected (1 Thess 4:15). Those select members from the 12 tribes would at sometime simply marry into the modern population so that by the time of the second coming the enough descendants from all 12 tribes would be alive and 12,000 from each tribe would be chosen and sealed into the kingdom. As noted, Paul, but also John were chosen not to die at all.
So "never happened" is something you don't know about. Just reasonably presumed. I've seen both John and Paul myself, so that's how I found out. So when the Bible says some standing here will not die until he arrives, it meant just that. And since Bible chronology tells us within 4 months when he would arrive, that is between November 20, 1992 and April 6, 1993 (you know, for those of us who bother checking the scriptures and the chronology), that would mean some of those people would literally not die over those 2000 years. John was one of those disciples we know for sure was there when Jesus said that. Peter was too but we know Peter specifically was told by Jesus how he would die. Jesus didn't specifically tell Peter that John would not die but a rumor went out anyway that he would not die. But that was not a big deal because a whole group of Jews were going to be selected never to die until he returned.
John 21: 22 Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die.
Those who were to die but be resurrected at one point was concerned about whether they would receive their heavenly prize before those who were to remain alive and survive until the Lord's day. Paul clearly includes himself in that group:
1 Thess. 4: 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that wethe living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.
Now, of course, that's difficult for some to believe. But only because of cultural bias. This IS what the Bible teaches, so if one rejects this, they are rejecting the truth of God's word. What is important is that you understand that even though it is difficult to believe this, and though you apparently accept the direct meaning of what is said and dismiss it as not happening, it in no way means it is untrue. It's just something that is not evidently demonstrated to you. But it is to others. I was introduced to Paul before I looked up the pertinent scriptures involved that does show some from the 1st century would never die and Paul included himself in that group. So that's how I found out, after the fact. So it made it easier for me to accept. Further, if you saw Paul, you'd know "he wasn't from around here." That is, well, he didn't have a modern look. Lots of people today are blended and mixed and look more "cosmopolitan"--whatever.
At any rate:
1) You are reading the verse correctly that some would not die, implying over 2000 years.
2) Your presumption that Jesus would not miraculously stop the aging process for a special group of Christians so that they could survive over those 1900 years is nothing you can disprove, only not believe. But if you don't believe, it is not big surprise, because Acts 13 says:
ACTS 13:41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’"
I've given you the "details", are you a believer?
Get it? You cannot come to Him unless he calls you. God never intended for certain types ever to find their way into the kingdom, even accidentally.
JCanon
