JW responds to Keep On The Watch blog...

by Burger Time 28 Replies latest watchtower scandals

Burger Time

If anyone doesn't know I posted a blog about the Keep On The Watch scandel that a lot seem to not care about.... It can be found HERE. Anyways if you look at the comments one girl strongly "defends" the WTS. Well her sister is a wtiness. Here is the back story on that.
After posting the blog my brother calls me to let me know he got a email from said siter. He says she is pissed. He reads me the message she sent which basically went something like this. "I didn't know Jon was so angry. He is apostate and you should stay away from him." Now I am just making it really short and paraphrasing but it's pretty much what she was saying. She then blocked me on myspace and refused to even comment on it. Now this is the same person whom I told I ran an ex-jw group and did not support the WTS. She told me we should debate because she was able to out debate a "atheist philisophy" major supposdly. So of course when she gets a chance to debate, she cuts and runs. Anyways I message her through my other profile asking her to explain herself. In this post you will see what I wrote, then what she wrote and my response.
carla

Sounds like if you made another blog or article in direct response to her she would be back. That seems to be the m.o. of jw's. Hit and run but sneak a peek back and then they can't help themselves from just 'one last' comment before being done with the evil apostates, until next time.
Burger Time

What I wrote......
Hey Erin, I talked to my brother and he informed me about you blocking me. First of all I would just like to say that I posted that bulletin saying that JW's should not read my blog for the specific reason that they may be offended.

That being said I was under the assumption that you liked debating with others about your religion. I was merely making an observation, which by the way has not been debunked by anyone. I will be more then happy to apologize if someone shows me proof that derails the points I made in my blog.

Anyways if you ever do want to discuss things solely on a biblical basis why I believe what I believe I would be more then happy too.

It should also be noted I can not be labeled "apostate" as I have never been baptized and therefore never accepted the Witnesses as having the "truth". Even if I was baptized, by the bibles' definition of apostate, I wouldn't be one (1 Tim 4:1-6; 2 Peter 2:1-).

Hopefully you can find it in yourself to at least explain why you feel I should be cut off.

Thanks,

Jonathan Burger
Burger Time

Here is her response........
Did your brother inform you that he and your parents feel the same way? That's what he told me when I asked why you were so angry.

First off, you did not state that Jehovah's Witnesses shouldn't read your blog until later in your comments, which, by the way, falls after your blog.

Second, I noticed something about your blog. Everything you were spouting off about are about imperfect people who failed to do what they were supposed to do morally, not legally. Even in the spot from MSNBC, it makes mention that some states required church leaders to come forward while other don't. They even made mention of a man that was disfellowshipped but not sent into the authorities. This was most likely one of those states. I do know that the society has since stated that if abuse is alleged, the elders must go to the authorities about it regardless of state statutes. Yes, there were some screw ups. Yes, the society is run by imperfect people. And yes, they take steps to correct the problems. But you don’t mention any of that. How convenient. I guess it just didn’t suit your argument, no?

You, however, state that you want to debate bible scriptures but yet you don't mention one valid scripture in your entire entry. You rant and rave about allegations of imperfect people and use that as a means to turn people away from hearing but yet, you never back it up with any scriptures. You came to debate? Let’s debate.

You asked me to tell you why I think you're an apostate. You quoted the scripture yourself. You don’t actually have to be baptized. I don’t see “one that was baptized” anywhere in here. Here let me refresh you memory of it: 2 Peter 2:1-4. The other one you quoted didn’t really fit with this scenario as it was in reference to people who were being ostracized for eating meats that were slaughtered for sacrifice to false gods

1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.

What part doesn't describe your acts? You learned of the truth, still attend meeting, conventions and even go to get-togethers. You read our literature and use our study guides but only to find pitfalls that you can sway others with. You are starting your own following even if you call it a "support group." If it walks like a duck, Jon. I mean, you can call it what you want but it is what it is.

You may not have your own version of the truth but you do everything in your power to turn away as many people as possible to anyone who will listen to you (your followers). I’m going to break it down for you piece by piece so you have NO DOUBT about what you’ve become.

You may not be outright lying to people, but you sure as hell aren't telling them the whole truth. You failed to mention the rectification the society has made to correct the scenario you mentioned. You make false and inaccurate comments like:

"Sexual abuse amongst JW's has been a problem for a LONG time. I think almost every JW knows some sordid story of a leader (called elders) that raped or abused someone and got found out."

I personally know of no one who this has happened to. In fact, I know of someone who was abused by her father (not an elder) and the man that did it was turned in by the elders and sent to jail. There was another whose father (not in the truth) was abusing her, the elders found out and turned him in. He also went to jail. You know, now that I think about it, I don't know many people who can relate stories of elders abusing kids. Maybe you know of all of them all by your lonesome and if that's the case, the responsibility to set matters straight then falls on your shoulders. Hop to it Jon! Go turn them in! It's for the greater good! But I can bet that you don't know of any stories either, not personally anyway. Maybe you know of some "he said she said" sordid tales. If that is truly the case, your beloved proof just flew out the window. Your blog just started more “he said she said tales”. Proud?

Here's another quote from you:

"They have started to sell a lot of their complexes in New York, this might or might not be a direct result of the suits, one can only guess, but it certainly is unique timing."

Now, Jon. Shouldn't you do a bit more research into matters before making yourself look like you don't know a damn thing? It's common knowledge to the people that actually attend the meetings to learn and to listen that the society recently moved their printing operations to a remote location so that they can have more space at a lesser cost. They even built the facility. It has a farm too. Since nothing is now housed in those buildings, why should the society keep them? They're empty. So they sold them. Big whoopdee do, Hardy Boy. You really thought you were on to a hot topic there! Again, you tell only part of the truth to try to make your "point" but never the whole truth. Or, maybe you didn't know the whole truth. Maybe you only "research" just enough so you think you've got everything figured out but in the end you just look like you know nothing.

Oh, here's a great one:

Quote from you:

"WHOOPS! STOP THE PRESSES BOYS! Guess they had better not let that little gem get out. Well low and behold the campaign has been canceled abruptly with no reason given. Now, I can't honestly say it's because of the blatant hypocrisy stated in the publication but the circumstantial evidence is certainly piling up. Something else to note is that the number of publishers (those whom get baptized) are going down rapidly in the U.S. and Europe."

WHOOPS! STOP THE PRESSES JON! They never "abruptly ended" anything. Again, inadequate inaccurate information to try to sway others to believe YOUR point rather than have them listen. It ran it's time that we were supposed to run it and it stopped....just like....EVERY OTHER CAMPAIGN WE RUN. In fact, we still offer it and can still offer it at the doors. Where do you get your information from? It’s been a while since we had that campaign too. You’re just coming out with this rant now? Hey, ya know what? The society speaks out against abuse. Hey, ya know what? They don't put up with it like you say they do. Hey, ya know what? It's wrong in any religion and yes, it's in the magazine.

Oh, and I'd love to see your reference points on number of Witnesses in the USA and Europe. I know the numbers. I attend. I have the information that you say you do and it doesn't exactly match up with what you state as fact.

And here's the GRAND FINALE!!!

Quote from you:

"They may go ahead with the campaign, if for some reason they stupidly do, you should point it out to any JW you receive at the door. Chances are the JW who is trying to push this on you never even took the time to read their own publication and will be shocked to see it right there in front of their face. More then likely though they will try to put some ridiculous spin on how it somehow doesn't apply to themselves. The golden rule must be built out of flakey mica.

"Don't judge others, or you will be judged. You will be judged in the same way that you judge others, and the amount you give to others will be given to you.

Why do you notice the little piece of dust in your friend's eye, but you don't notice the big piece of wood in your own eye? How can you say to your friend, 'Let me take that little piece of dust out of your eye'??

Look at yourself! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye. You hypocrite!

First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly to take the dust out of your friend's eye.""

Wow, where do I start? Ummm... how about the "stupidly do" part. I personally know that many (I'd venture to say that almost all) read the literature. Hell, let’s just say a great number read the literature before they pass it out. Once again I have to point out that you really do try to make us look like blithering idiots. But again, I do really have to point out that YOU are a blithering idiot. You're supposed rebuttal to get us off of people's doors… it's really lame. It's not hidden in our society about the abuse allegations as well as the fact that the society settled out of court. It's quite common knowledge. No one tries to hide anything. In fact, important rectifications of the manner that elders handle such things came directly from it. But since you've chosen to only research things all by yourself and really don't know what is going on in a more up-to-date manner, you really wouldn't know of them, would you? See? That's the problem with people "doing their own research", something you tried to use against my sister in a reply to her. You can't really keep up with it.

And here's another thing. Call me crazy but I think, neigh, I know, that if I had a child that was abused, I wouldn't "settle" out of court. I'd make sure that the person responsible went to jail for a very long time and was branded as a sex abuser for the remainder of his/her natural life. Why would any parent accept money instead of justice on such an important matter? Maybe you should think about that. I'm not saying that things never happened and God have mercy on any person's soul for committing such a heinous crime. I do, however, question the motive of people who would rather have money than justice. Don't you agree?

Also, on a side note, Ye of Godly Knowledge, the Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would also like to have done to you." It's definitely not that bogus "quoting" of the Sermon on the Mount. What an eloquent translation you have.

Hey, that rafter…you should get to removing that.

Cheers.
Burger Time

Here is my reponse....
Hmmm.. Where do I start? Well I’ll just jump right in to it.

Did your brother inform you that he and your parents feel the same way? That's what he told me when I asked why you were so angry.

Your sister tried to use this same logical fallacy, it’s called Ad Hominem. This is when instead of bringing up a real point you attack someone’s character. I HAVE to be an angry person to write this. It is far from the truth and has nothing to do with the facts stated. If my MOM feels that way she should inform me, she is the one who informed me I could not be apostate since I did not dedicate my life to the recognition that the JW’s have “truth”. So that has nothing to do with the issue as well.

Second, I noticed something about your blog. Everything you were spouting off about are about imperfect people who failed to do what they were supposed to do morally, not legally. Even in the spot from MSNBC, it makes mention that some states required church leaders to come forward while other don't. They even made mention of a man that was disfellowshipped but not sent into the authorities. This was most likely one of those states. I do know that the society has since stated that if abuse is alleged, the elders must go to the authorities about it regardless of state statutes. Yes, there were some screw ups. Yes, the society is run by imperfect people. And yes, they take steps to correct the problems. But you don’t mention any of that. How convenient. I guess it just didn’t suit your argument, no?

Rather or not they take steps to correct the problem has nothing to do with my argument. The Society in their publications has pointed out numerous times how you can tell another religion is false because of child molestation problems. In a 1996 Watchtower they even boasted about how the religious leaders should be without fault according to Titus in direct relation to the Catholic Church paying victims (WT 7/1 pg.7). Again in as recent as the Keep On The Watch brochure, which you more then likely have on Pg.3 it openly points out other religions doing the same thing in a negative light. It doesn’t say, “These men are imperfect and should be forgiven”. Nor does it point out they are as guilty. So again what part of that is un-hypocritical? Your refusing to see FACTS. Rather they are imperfect or good people has nothing to do with what they STATED.

First off, you did not state that Jehovah's Witnesses shouldn't read your blog until later in your comments, which, by the way, falls after your blog.

I stated this in my bulletin. I didn’t feel the need to put a warning on a personal blog.

You, however, state that you want to debate bible scriptures but yet you don't mention one valid scripture in your entire entry. You rant and rave about allegations of imperfect people and use that as a means to turn people away from hearing but yet, you never back it up with any scriptures. You came to debate? Let’s debate.

Why did I have to mention any Scriptures? They are irrelevant to what was being done, which was blatant hypocrisy. If I see a man robbing someone then telling people he doesn’t rob them, do I have to pull scriptures out to prove he is a hypocrite? I said if YOU wanted to find out how I felt from the scriptures I could tell YOU. As with the debate, the first rule is not to use logical fallacies so please try to avoid those when debating with me.

You asked me to tell you why I think you're an apostate. You quoted the scripture yourself. You don’t actually have to be baptized. I don’t see “one that was baptized” anywhere in here. Here let me refresh you memory of it: 2 Peter 2:1-4. The other one you quoted didn’t really fit with this scenario as it was in reference to people who were being ostracized for eating meats that were slaughtered for sacrifice to false gods

1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.

What part doesn't describe your acts? You learned of the truth, still attend meeting, conventions and even go to get-togethers. You read our literature and use our study guides but only to find pitfalls that you can sway others with. You are starting your own following even if you call it a "support group." If it walks like a duck, Jon. I mean, you can call it what you want but it is what it is.

How have I been a false prophet or false teacher? Again I stated facts. Your organizations hypocrisy speaks for itself, again I point you to the Keep On The Watch brochure pg. 3. They accuse others of doing the same thing they do. You fail to recognize what type of people Peter was talking about. In verse one he says that these people will “disown THE OWNER THAT BOUGHT THEM”. Who is it that bought us? It’s Jesus. I have never disowned Jesus nor taught that we should disown Jesus. Your trying to take this scripture out of context and trying to fit it to me. I should point out to you I stopped attending meetings as soon as my parents stopped FORCING me to attend meeting.

I’ll tackle the issue of apostasy separate from this. Look though at the actual definition of apostasy:

“the state of having rejected your religious beliefs or your political party or a cause (often in favor of opposing beliefs or causes)”

Again I was never baptized and never publicly declared I was officially a Witness.

You may not have your own version of the truth but you do everything in your power to turn away as many people as possible to anyone who will listen to you (your followers). I’m going to break it down for you piece by piece so you have NO DOUBT about what you’ve become.

You may not be outright lying to people, but you sure as hell aren't telling them the whole truth. You failed to mention the rectification the society has made to correct the scenario you mentioned. You make false and inaccurate comments like:

"Sexual abuse amongst JW's has been a problem for a LONG time. I think almost every JW knows some sordid story of a leader (called elders) that raped or abused someone and got found out."

I personally know of no one who this has happened to. In fact, I know of someone who was abused by her father (not an elder) and the man that did it was turned in by the elders and sent to jail. There was another whose father (not in the truth) was abusing her, the elders found out and turned him in. He also went to jail. You know, now that I think about it, I don't know many people who can relate stories of elders abusing kids. Maybe you know of all of them all by your lonesome and if that's the case, the responsibility to set matters straight then falls on your shoulders. Hop to it Jon! Go turn them in! It's for the greater good! But I can bet that you don't know of any stories either, not personally anyway. Maybe you know of some "he said she said" sordid tales. If that is truly the case, your beloved proof just flew out the window. Your blog just started more “he said she said tales”. Proud?

You claim that I do everything in my power to turn others, yet you don’t know me. If someone asks me I will tell them how I feel. You also make it as if I have “followers” this is almost laughable. I ask you, who are my followers? I simply tell people to think for themselves. If I feel I am being tricked or lied to, I point it out. I don’t make an effort to dissuade a witness from being a witness, I feel strongly about religious rights. I do however think that it is unfair for someone to come to MY door telling me how I am going to die because MY religion is doing something that theirs is doing. I also feel that a religion that claims to follow THE BIBLE should follow it. Again if you ever want to get in biblical debate on any subject I would be happy too.

Again I apologized if the statement was over broad. Others though that I know, know of issues of sexual abuse and misconduct. Many of us know about people who commit suicide but if you run into someone who has never heard of it does it mean it isn’t a problem amongst teenagers? Just because you have not heard of it does not mean it isn’t rampant.

The society has always dealt with outside molesters the same. It’s the in house molesters who get special treatment. This again is well documented by COURT RECORDS. What notifications have they made exactly other then a blanket press release and an Awake about how you can help victims?

Your next paragraph is where it gets fun. I DO know personally of someone whom was molested in the organization. Again you don’t know me, or who I know. Again, your not debating merely trying to belittle my opinion. How exactly does my beloved proof fly out the window? Again I point you towards the COURT DOCUMENTS AS MY PROOF. IF there was no proof why in the world would the society settle?

Here's another quote from you:

"They have started to sell a lot of their complexes in New York, this might or might not be a direct result of the suits, one can only guess, but it certainly is unique timing."

Now, Jon. Shouldn't you do a bit more research into matters before making yourself look like you don't know a damn thing? It's common knowledge to the people that actually attend the meetings to learn and to listen that the society recently moved their printing operations to a remote location so that they can have more space at a lesser cost. They even built the facility. It has a farm too. Since nothing is now housed in those buildings, why should the society keep them? They're empty. So they sold them. Big whoopdee do, Hardy Boy. You really thought you were on to a hot topic there! Again, you tell only part of the truth to try to make your "point" but never the whole truth. Or, maybe you didn't know the whole truth. Maybe you only "research" just enough so you think you've got everything figured out but in the end you just look like you know nothing.

Hmmm…I said these moves were SUSPICIOUS and UNIQUE timing. I will let my readers make their own decision. I said point blank I couldn’t say for sure that they are selling these because of the settlements. I forgot that the Society has never told a lie since it’s existence. Ha, whole truth? So I say that I am not sure, and I can’t be sure, but it seems odd all of the sudden they are selling all this stuff. Sorry I didn’t list every single detail. The timing IS STILL SUSPICIOUS TO ME AND MANY OTHERS EX JW AND NON JW’s. So despite what they say it doesn’t make it any less suspicious.

Oh, here's a great one:

Quote from you:

"WHOOPS! STOP THE PRESSES BOYS! Guess they had better not let that little gem get out. Well low and behold the campaign has been canceled abruptly with no reason given. Now, I can't honestly say it's because of the blatant hypocrisy stated in the publication but the circumstantial evidence is certainly piling up. Something else to note is that the number of publishers (those whom get baptized) are going down rapidly in the U.S. and Europe."

WHOOPS! STOP THE PRESSES JON! They never "abruptly ended" anything. Again, inadequate inaccurate information to try to sway others to believe YOUR point rather than have them listen. It ran it's time that we were supposed to run it and it stopped....just like....EVERY OTHER CAMPAIGN WE RUN. In fact, we still offer it and can still offer it at the doors. Where do you get your information from? It’s been a while since we had that campaign too. You’re just coming out with this rant now? Hey, ya know what? The society speaks out against abuse. Hey, ya know what? They don't put up with it like you say they do. Hey, ya know what? It's wrong in any religion and yes, it's in the magazine.

Oh, and I'd love to see your reference points on number of Witnesses in the USA and Europe. I know the numbers. I attend. I have the information that you say you do and it doesn't exactly match up with what you state as fact.

In the December KM it states that a special effort to place the Keep On The Watch Brochure should be made. My sources tell me this has been canceled and confirmed by a separate source. If it ends up it is not cancelled and they still want others to place it, I will publicly apologize.

My reference points for the loss in industrialized nations is the Yearbook and past Watchtowers where there have been decreases in numbers. Just look for the last 4 years at numbers. There is also not a posted number of how many LEAVE the organization each year. If you look at the numbers it shows that just as many are leaving as are joining. If the numbers are going down each year and the rate of newly baptized publishers is the same, you have to come to the conclusion that more are leaving. You can do your own independent research on that though. If I am wrong, please let me know.

And here's the GRAND FINALE!!!

Quote from you:

"They may go ahead with the campaign, if for some reason they stupidly do, you should point it out to any JW you receive at the door. Chances are the JW who is trying to push this on you never even took the time to read their own publication and will be shocked to see it right there in front of their face. More then likely though they will try to put some ridiculous spin on how it somehow doesn't apply to themselves. The golden rule must be built out of flakey mica.

"Don't judge others, or you will be judged. You will be judged in the same way that you judge others, and the amount you give to others will be given to you.

Why do you notice the little piece of dust in your friend's eye, but you don't notice the big piece of wood in your own eye? How can you say to your friend, 'Let me take that little piece of dust out of your eye'??

Look at yourself! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye. You hypocrite!

First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly to take the dust out of your friend's eye.""

Wow, where do I start? Ummm... how about the "stupidly do" part. I personally know that many (I'd venture to say that almost all) read the literature. Hell, let’s just say a great number read the literature before they pass it out. Once again I have to point out that you really do try to make us look like blithering idiots. But again, I do really have to point out that YOU are a blithering idiot. You're supposed rebuttal to get us off of people's doors… it's really lame. It's not hidden in our society about the abuse allegations as well as the fact that the society settled out of court. It's quite common knowledge. No one tries to hide anything. In fact, important rectifications of the manner that elders handle such things came directly from it. But since you've chosen to only research things all by yourself and really don't know what is going on in a more up-to-date manner, you really wouldn't know of them, would you? See? That's the problem with people "doing their own research", something you tried to use against my sister in a reply to her. You can't really keep up with it.

And here's another thing. Call me crazy but I think, neigh, I know, that if I had a child that was abused, I wouldn't "settle" out of court. I'd make sure that the person responsible went to jail for a very long time and was branded as a sex abuser for the remainder of his/her natural life. Why would any parent accept money instead of justice on such an important matter? Maybe you should think about that. I'm not saying that things never happened and God have mercy on any person's soul for committing such a heinous crime. I do, however, question the motive of people who would rather have money than justice. Don't you agree?

Also, on a side note, Ye of Godly Knowledge, the Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would also like to have done to you." It's definitely not that bogus "quoting" of the Sermon on the Mount. What an eloquent translation you have.

Hey, that rafter…you should get to removing that.

This is interesting; you bring up a few things. As far as reading the literature, yes some do but most don’t. I had to tell you about what the Watchtower was about!

You say that they have changed the way they do things, this was only AFTER they got caught with bad techniques and a news expose was done on them. Also it was only known about the molestation suites when it was EXPOSED. I know all of my JW friends and family knew nothing about it until I told them about it. A press release was not issued until a big deal was made about it. How many knew that the Society had the familys sign a gag order? Please tell me why a Christian would make a victim keep quiet? Also please show me a WT or Awake where they mention that they paid out millions in Sexual Abuse lawsuits and apologized for it? You can’t because they never published such things. The only reason the bulk of Witnesses know is because of word of mouth. Not because they are so open about it. I strongly suggest YOU look at the court documents. You obviously will not believe anything I say.

So what would you say if someone pointed this out to you? Even if you put your spin on it that JW’s are good people and they have owned up to doing it. How do you justify in print them trashing another religion for the same thing they are doing? You automatically loose all credibility. If your foolish enough to place such stuff, you should accept that it makes you look foolish. This is why I said, “stupidly”.

As for the Golden Rule, Jesus is stating the jest of what he just said in verse 12, verse 1-5 is just as relevant to the Golden rule. It’s the same thing. Read the whole chapter of Matthew 7. Many Christians have just chosen that scripture to “sum” it up. Many Scholars encompass Matthew 7:1-12 as the complete golden rule, so we are both right.

For the last point, you, trying to minimize the families as if they had some kind of vendetta against the society. You obviously have not done any research in to this at all. The families DID press charges against the molester. If the society cared about justice this would not have gotten out of hand in the first place. Again look at court documents. They didn’t press charges as early as they should have because they listened to the Elders, who listened to the society. If they had gone against what the elders said no doubt more kids would not have been hurt. We will never know why they sued because they signed a gag order to not speak about it. I question why a family would sign a gag order, but we can merely speculate.
Burger Time

Her response.....
Jon - take it up with your brother. Here's what he wrote me. I wasn't being evil about that. I was being serious. I wasn't attacking your character. I was trying to get you to see that, while they love you for you, they may still see you as a dangerous source. Here's his email:

"Hey yeah i read it when he wrote it and yeah he is an apostate.He's pretty freakin crazy.HE runs a support group for ex Jehovah's witnesses.So yeah he's been this way for a while now.It's not that big of news to me or my parents.BUt yeah it's prolly better you blocked him cuz he's always tryin to like debate over things.Oh well.Anyways thanx for the heads up.Hows life with you?"

Like I said, take it up with him.

Logical fallacies, Jon? You go on a diatribe about everything the society does wrong, find that the solutions to such problems are irrelevant and there is no need to discuss them. Isn't that lying? You make it seem like we're these horrible people that grab little children and diddle them in the basement. You have no interest in advocating the other side of the problem because maybe someone will read it and say "Hey, maybe they aren't as bad because they actually took measures and precautions to help this now and it the future." But no. That's irrelevant. The point is, your whole purpose is to lead people away. That is why you speak out, no? I mean, I can't find another reason as to why you would. Having questions and issues with our religion is fine but writing an entire entry on "Jehovah's Blunder" isn't exactly the most couth way to do it. In fact, I could venture to say that all you were aiming to do was stir up more anger towards us. Good for you. Take it elsewhere. You wanted to know why I blocked you, that's why. Because you are an apostate who has no intention of telling the WHOLE UNBIASED truth. Do you realize that most of your blog was your opinions and speculations based around someone else's findings? But your little readers will go off and take what you said, even though you stated outright that it's speculation, and make it truth for them.

I'm sorry that you had to inform people of the controversy surrounding the acts that someone did obviously a long time ago. Shame on the people in the society that tried to handle it themselves, shame on the brother/sister that committed the crime and shame on the parents for putting up with it. Yeah, someone screwed up big here. All of them screwed up big here. Is that what you were looking for? Are you going to stop sniveling about it now? And how do you know that the society hasn't apologized to anyone? Are you omniscient now? Perhaps you don't know the whole story. I'm betting you don't. Here's an idea. Why don't you write to the society about it. I can guarantee that they'd answer you.

And here's the kicker...if you hate us so much and can't stand for the "hypocrisy" in our organization, then what the hell moves you to come join us for our meetings, conventions and social events? You mingle among us and deceive people into thinking that you are a wholesome person when you're not.

And about the "false religion because of child abuse" thing. Show me where it's ever come out as a religion being false SOLELY on sex abuse claims. I know there are other identifying reasons given along with the abuse scandals. You want to know a big difference between us and, say, the Catholic church? We don't move our elders to other congregations and then to other congregations and the to still other congregations to keep them in the ministry. Please don't try to use half ass excuses.

Like I said before, we're imperfect people. We are headed by an imperfect society. So what, we screw up. So, I'm guessing you shit gold bullion, no? Never screwed up? Never made wrong judgments years ago and have them come back for you to face like you should have to begin with? No? Not ever happen to you? You must be the friggin messiah, you're perfect. Tell the Jews. They're still waiting for theirs.

And one more thing before I block you again. You titled your piece as Jehovah's Blunders. That thing about "disowning the person that brought you". Yes, it means Jesus but you went one step above him and directly disowned his father. Good one babe. Jehovah's perfect. The people that follow him aren't. But making Jehovah out to be the sole reason all of this is and has happened? Let me guess. The next step for you is to blame the gays in LA for Katrina and that God just wanted to wipe them out.
Burger Time

My reponse and this is where it ended, because she changed her myspace settings so I could not respond.....
Jon - take it up with your brother. Here's what he wrote me. I wasn't being evil about that. I was being serious. I wasn't attacking your character. I was trying to get you to see that, while they love you for you, they may still see you as a dangerous source. Here's his email: "Hey yeah i read it when he wrote it and yeah he is an apostate.He's pretty freakin crazy.HE runs a support group for ex Jehovah's witnesses.So yeah he's been this way for a while now.It's not that big of news to me or my parents.BUt yeah it's prolly better you blocked him cuz he's always tryin to like debate over things.Oh well.Anyways thanx for the heads up.Hows life with you?"
First off I know exactly what he wrote you because he told me. I said what my brother and mother think is between me, and them. So you’re merely repeating what I stated to you. You did however attack my character. Just because he writes you something does not mean he feels I am an “apostate”, this is like me telling you something your sister feels when I don’t know her that well. YOU know what your sister is like, just as I know what my brother and mother are like. You said the following ”That's what he told me when I asked why you were so angry” you assumed I was angry when there is no reason to make such an assumption. Your sister also accused me of the same thing. It had nothing to do with anger. How many times can I tell you before I assure you of that? I willing to say it as many times as it takes.
Logical fallacies, Jon? You go on a diatribe about everything the society does wrong, find that the solutions to such problems are irrelevant and there is no need to discuss them. Isn't that lying?
I didn’t find the solutions, irrelevant. They are a start, but it certainly is not enough in my estimation. Believe I did not go on a diatribe about everything I find wrong with the society. I choose one thing to speak about, which I found both amusing and alarming. Again I point you to the court documents then you can explain to me why you feel the society was justified in what they did. Also please look through my blog and tell me when I have ever posted anything relating to the Society or JW’s.
You make it seem like we're these horrible people that grab little children and diddle them in the basement.
When and where did I say anything like this? I didn’t. Your ignoring the jest of the first paragraph, where I say my childhood was not bad. Again the main point of the article was to point out the statement on pg. 3 of the brochure condemning other churches of doing the same thing the Society did. That’s all.
You have no interest in advocating the other side of the problem because maybe someone will read it and say "Hey, maybe they aren't as bad because they actually took measures and precautions to help this now and it the future." But no. That's irrelevant. The point is, your whole purpose is to lead people away. That is why you speak out, no? I mean, I can't find another reason as to why you would. Having questions and issues with our religion is fine but writing an entire entry on "Jehovah's Blunder" isn't exactly the most couth way to do it. In fact, I could venture to say that all you were aiming to do was stir up more anger towards us. Good for you.
Again I point to you the issue isn’t about the abuse per say but them claiming other religions should be judged on something they are as guilty of. Look at the brochure pg. 3. As I stated before it is my PERSONAL blog. I should be free to be as uncouth as I like. I posted a bulletin informing JW’s they should stay away from it, for that exact reason. The reason I posted it is because I feel people should be informed on the issues. If YOU come to MY door and tell me I am going to be destroyed at Armageddon for believing something, you should be aware that your own organization is doing the same thing.
Take it elsewhere. You wanted to know why I blocked you, that's why. Because you are an apostate who has no intention of telling the WHOLE UNBIASED truth. Do you realize that most of your blog was your opinions and speculations based around someone else's findings? But your little readers will go off and take what you said, even though you stated outright that it's speculation, and make it truth for them.
Again you’re attacking my character. You accuse me of having no intention of telling the “WHOLE UNBIASED truth”. I offered that if I was wrong I would gladly accept it and apologize publicly. You have yet to refute the whole point of my blog. Where did I lie? Would you be happy if I change the part about almost all JW’s knowing of an abuse situation within the hall? If so I will change it.
I'm sorry that you had to inform people of the controversy surrounding the acts that someone did obviously a long time ago. Shame on the people in the society that tried to handle it themselves, shame on the brother/sister that committed the crime and shame on the parents for putting up with it. Yeah, someone screwed up big here. All of them screwed up big here. Is that what you were looking for? This did not happen a “long time ago”.
This was in the last 3 years. Unfortunately Erin, not everyone is as strong as me, or you. Many are weak minded and listen to those they feel are authority figures. In fact Paul predicted and warned against those whom take advantage of such weak willed individuals (2 Tim 3:6). These people trusted those with power would amend the situation. It was not amended.
Are you going to stop sniveling about it now? And how do you know that the society hasn't apologized to anyone? Are you omniscient now? Perhaps you don't know the whole story. I'm betting you don't. Here's an idea. Why don't you write to the society about it. I can guarantee that they'd answer you.
Again there was no “sniveling” about it. Just show me where the Society made a public apology for informing people there religion was wrong because of child abuse cases even though the JW’s had the same problem. Just show me. Please.
And here's the kicker...if you hate us so much and can't stand for the "hypocrisy" in our organization, then what the hell moves you to come join us for our meetings, conventions and social events? You mingle among us and deceive people into thinking that you are a wholesome person when you're not.
Again you attack my character. You accuse me of “hating” you and every JW. I do not. When have I mingled in your social events? When have I “tricked” others in to thinking I am not who I say I am? The last meeting/convention I was at, I only went because my parents asked me to go, and it was a personal favor to them. After I found out about the abuse and how it was handled I informed my Mom I would no longer attend a meeting or accept literature until a public apology was made. You can call my Mother if you like and ask her. She may also inform you I told both her and my Dad that I didn’t like going with them because it made me feel like a hypocrite. Again you’re simply trying to attack my character and not attempt to refute the main point of my blog.
And about the "false religion because of child abuse" thing. Show me where it's ever come out as a religion being false SOLELY on sex abuse claims. I know there are other identifying reasons given along with the abuse scandals. You want to know a big difference between us and, say, the Catholic church? We don't move our elders to other congregations and then to other congregations and the to still other congregations to keep them in the ministry. Please don't try to use half ass excuses.
Again read the Court Documents and public record. The organization may not “move” others out, but when molesters do move no attempt to inform the new congregation of the problem is made. Look at the documents. Where in my blog to I make such a statement that they feel this is a sole basis for false religion? Again your not refuting the main point that it is hypocritical to accuse someone of doing the same thing your doing.
Like I said before, we're imperfect people. We are headed by an imperfect society. So what, we screw up. So, I'm guessing you shit gold bullion, no? Never screwed up? Never made wrong judgments years ago and have them come back for you to face like you should have to begin with? No? Not ever happen to you? You must be the friggin messiah, you're perfect. Tell the Jews. They're still waiting for theirs.
Do you or the society give such understanding to other religions? After all they make mistakes right? Are you willing to extend the same courtesy to them? At what point are there too many mistakes? Again you attack my character. Further more you throw out a random insult to Jews. This has nothing to do with the fact of blatant hypocrisy. You offer no defense for it. Your trying to draw a “red herring” to me, which is no defense for the society.
And one more thing before I block you again. You titled your piece as Jehovah's Blunders. That thing about "disowning the person that brought you". Yes, it means Jesus but you went one step above him and directly disowned his father. Good one babe. Jehovah's perfect. The people that follow him aren't. But making Jehovah out to be the sole reason all of this is and has happened? Let me guess. The next step for you is to blame the gays in LA for Katrina and that God just wanted to wipe them out.
Your known as a Jehovah’s Witness no? So how is my naming it Jehovah’s Blunders an attack on God? Do we have to call the Catholics by their full name? Had I said, “Mormon’s Blunders” would you have been just as insulted? The word Jehovah means nothing. It’s what the name YHWH represents that is important. Jesus said he came to make his father’s name know. Yet he did not once say the name YHWH or Jehovah. It was what the “name” represented that Jesus was there to make known. So please don’t try to infer that I am in someway insulting God by making the title of my blog what it is.
WTWizard

This sounds like the witlesses are real wusses when it comes to debates. They either refuse to discuss the situation at all (while sticking to their own bad sources) or keep repeating their original stock answer, along with a few scriptures that are always taken out of context. I wonder what ever happened to defending their faith?
Burger Time

Well I like how she accuses me of being angry, yet she is one the who keeps slinging insults.
mentalclearness

Well that was very long. There seemed to be alot of hate in her first reply letter. It was definitely an emotionally loaded issue for her. Now, I have to think that she finds it difficult to detach herself from those emotions and reason. No witness knows about the pedophile cases and issues if not through word of mouth. NOTHING has come out in the literature, a letter from the society, a mention at a bookstudy. NOTHING!
Now let's say they have amended things and learned...besides the PUBLIC APOLOGY that should have been given...there is one more thing I disagree with. The JW's criticize the catholics for the priest cover-ups. Yes, they would send them to different locations. But how is what the witnesses did any better? I mean they stayed in the same locations. In some cases they were just privately reproved. And nothing was said to the FAMILIES that attended those halls. So really it was worse.
According to my brothers who are elders, current policy is that all who have that particular sin (pedophile) will never be allowed to have priviledges again and the ministerial servants and elders will be told about said sin so as not to place children in the hall in danger. (sitting next to them or preaching alone etc) o.k. and here's the kicker...the FAMILIES attending the hall are still not told. I mean obviously if you are family with an elder or ministerial servant who knows you'll know from them. But what if you aren't? Then what? Then you could be taking your kid to the bathroom and letting him go in there with a freaking pedophile and not know anything......Yeah, amends my ass!!!!
In many cases it's not about the money. It actually is an indication of the seriousness of what happened.

JW responds to Keep On The Watch blog...

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