by Burger Time 28 Replies latest watchtower scandals
The disection of her arguments are absolutely fantastic. Every time she responds it's just attacking you as a person, I like how you bring it back to your actual point of the hypocritical nature of the campaign.
I applaud you for being so patient, I would've been much more sarcastic and my reply probably would've been.
"Yes I'm a huge asshole, now prove to me how JW's settling a molestation case is any different than the Catholics settling theirs?"
BT,
Thanks for posting this. This witless doesn't understand that she is coming off a lot angrier than you are. And if you are a true apostate in her eyes, why was she even reading your blog and having a conversation with you?
She just wanted to argue, hope she feels better. But she will have to wait and see when something happens to one of her family members just how "loving" the GB will be to her and them.
Peace, Lilly
Yea I think this is a anti-witness I wonder how many sane educated people could look at her response and justify it.
Well done, Jon.You gave solid rebuttals that one can only hope would provide inspiration for serious reflection.Unfortunately, she's clearly in denial.I'm also not surprised by the amount of hubris she expresses.It's obvious she fancies herself an expert "debater" but she's far too emotional to carry it out effectively (quite a bit of profanity on her part too--guess she'll have to put in some extra field service hours to burn that off).
Anyway, it's also obvious that her supposed facts are really nothing more than limited perception of information that has been presented to her as "factual", namely, the propaganda the Society itself dispenses on a regular basis.I stepped down as an elder just a couple of years ago and I'm very aware of how the Society operates behind the scene.The average "publisher" would probably be surprised by just how businesslike things function behind closed doors.Just look at any "wordly" business meeting, toss in a prayer ( most of time) at the beginning and end, and there you have it.Any other elder here can testify to the truth of this.In fact, when I started looking at this religion through the eyes of a corporation I was able to more clearly see why things take place the way they do and why the seemingly contradictory lack of love and compassion could play such a large role in an organization claiming to be the sole channel to God and carrying out His work.
I want to make a couple of points on some things she said, if you don't mind.Starting first with one of the last things she said.....
Quote: "I do, however, question the motive of people who would rather have money than justice.Don't you agree ? "
This statement is wrong (and disgusting) on so many fronts it's not funny.She obviously doesn't understand, or apparently care, how the legal system works.Such a statement is nothing more than an attempt to discredit and call into character the very ones seeking justice.First of all, the extreme cost of litigation vs award is a serious consideration.Why ? Because if you lose , in most cases, you get nothing and will now owe not only your lawyers but also the legal fees of the opposition.For most people this would spell instant disaster.Most Witnesses are people of little means who can't afford to go up against the Society's own bigshot lawyers who are working "free" for an organization with deep pockets.
Consider this scenario: A Witness seeking justice pursues the matter in court.They lose, in some cases are disfellowshipped because of their "course of action", owe thousands upon thousands in legal fees, declare bankruptcy, are ostracized and viewed as apostates so that on one will listen to them anyway.With the out of court settlement they at least get "something" for the injustice they suffered and while they may be under gag orders there is always the prospect that others WILL hear about their legal case through others discussing such incidents.This type of information has a way of getting out.The gag order is nothing more than a "bribe" to keep them quiet and the victims have been put in a terrible catch 22 situation.
What this "great debater" fails to acknowledge is that there are a number of Witnesses who have refused to take the Society's money and thousands more who have contacted legal firms seeking justice, these cases are being pursued as we speak.We've only seen the tip of the iceberg of what's going on.
To say that the organization doesn't have a problem is absolutely ignorant.Take the case of Paul Berry, a Witness who is in prison right now serving a 56 to 112 year sentence for sexually abusing his own daughters.The mother approached the elders and told them that she needed help with her emotionally and physically abusive husband toward the girls.They made no inquiry about possible sexual abuse (but hey, they will ask a person if they're masturbating or what sexual practices a married couple enjoys in the privacy of their own bedroom..but I digress) instead, the elders told the family to be quiet, pray more and that she should strive to be a better wife.The wife and daughters knew they had to handle it themselves since the "shepherds" apparently would not.
Another thing apologists love to bring up is that the elders aren't "required" by law to report it ! I ask....When isn't a shepherd required to look after the sheep ? Are we not to 'obey God's law rather than mans' ? Acts 5:29. And yet, when it comes time to protect the sheep they lamely say:'We have no fiduciary repsonsibility toward the congregation'.Talk about a lame sacrifice ! In every state in this country it is required by law to report child abuse.However, the loophole that the Society uses is that some states allow for clergy-penitent privilege which indicates that if such things are revealed during "confession" that the clergy can keep it confidential.But the real question is:Why would one want to ? Is it really ethically and morally right to do so ? This is why many are working hard to change such laws.Additionally, the Society says elders aren't "clergy" but when it comes time to pull this trick, they'll say:"We're covered under the clergy-penitent priviliege.They certainly are masters at doublespeak and hyprocrisy.There's really a lot more that can be said about this subject but I've probably rambled on a bit here.Suffice it to say, we haven't heard the last of this issue and the Society is very well aware that they have a very BIG problem on their hands.
Thanks Breaking Away. I always try to explain to my brother he should think of the Org in the sense of a multinational conglomerate instead of a arm of God. It makes much more sense to me that way too.
Looks like I just might get an award for "most edited" post...lol.The format here is considerably different than what I'm used too.Anyhoo, the good thing is, this stuff is getting out there and more people are talking and looking into matters they previously would have written off.People who were lifetime Witnesses, elders, bethelites, pioneers, etc. are coming forward and shedding light on subjects that were previously only whispered about in dark corners.The internet has afforded inquiring Witnesses an anonymity that wasn't formerly possible.
Despite the efforts of WT apologists to discredit ones as "untrustworthy", "liars", "apostates", etc. due simply to the fact that they no longer choose to be a Witness, it's clear that people will listen to what they want to listen to and make up their own minds.Release of original documents and personal accounts by many former (and even current Witnesses) proves a credibility that can't be denied.The bonds we formed as Witnesses are no less real now that we no longer choose to be part of an organization that has denied the very maker it claims to serve.Things went well for Jesus until he started exposing the hypocrisy and lawless acts of the religious leaders of his own people, then they made him out to be an "apostate", a blasphemer, criminal,etc.They weren't satisfied until they killed him.
The Society won't admit they have a problem because it would mean admitting that they're just like every other religious institution out there.Surely, God's sole channel on earth wouldn't have a problem of this magnitude ! A "spiritual paradise" that allows predators to roam free while the sheep are gagged by their own shepherds from sounding a warning to their companions ...
Like I said before, we're imperfect people. We are headed by an imperfect society. So what, we screw up
Yawn.
"We" listen to WHATEVER the WTS is "currently teaching as TRUTH" and "we" expect everyone else to see them AS "the truth" no matter HOW many times they mess up and get it wrong....THEY be imperfect too.
Yeah...........right.
There will come a day when she will realize what a fool she has been. As of now, it wouldn't matter WHAT you proved or said to her. It wouldn't sink into her "imperfect" brain.
hugs,
Annie
There will come a day when she will realize what a fool she has been. As of now, it wouldn't matter WHAT you proved or said to her. It wouldn't sink into her "imperfect" brain.
hugs,
Annie
And she will have no one except herself to blame for being so blinded by her Watchtower idol.
Even though she eventually bailed out, due credit to your JW sister for engaging in a very detailed exchange with you - she did way more than many other JWs would ever do. I personally think she deserves some healthy positive reinforcement for this!
If we remove the JW context of the arguments, you and your sister sound like two siblings each too dogmatic in your respective views to really listen to what the other has said. Both of you seem stuck in the "head" stuff and miles away from each other's hearts. It's as if you have both backed each other into the corner and not allowed the other a dignified way to say, "I see what you mean. Tell me more...". Arguing the case seems to be the only response the egos will allow and this sounds really, really tiring...and ultimately so vain.
Call me crazy but I think, neigh, I know, that if I had a child that was abused, I wouldn't "settle" out of court. I'd make sure that the person responsible went to jail for a very long time and was branded as a sex abuser for the remainder of his/her natural life. Why would any parent accept money instead of justice on such an important matter? Maybe you should think about that.
Maybe she should ponder the legal and moral ramifications of paying out settlements if you are TRULY innocent...
