If the US were to have nuked Iraq it may have contaminated some of that yummy oil.
Climate Change. Yes the science is settled.
by mavie 137 Replies latest social current
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FreeWilly
CO2 comprises a scant fraction of Earths Gases (0.04%)
As a Greenhouse gas, anthropogenic CO2 is equally diminimus, totaling merely 0.28% - link
At our current 380ppm, CO2 is near its ALL TIME HISTORICAL LOW in Earth's history. - link
Earth has endured ice ages at CO2 concentrations over 10x as high as they are now!
The Sun's current output is at a 1000yr high - link
Historically, CO2 has risen following global temperature increase, acting more as an effect of warming rather than a cause.- link
Future warming, ocean rise, droughts and extreme weather are dire predictions based on computer models that cannot even predict the past! - link
But I digress. The science is settled. Critical scientists are being bought by oil companies (because we know Big Oil fears people will soon stop using their product.... yeah they lay awake at night fretting about that)
Void, care to substantiate your claim of Lizden being funded by Oil companies for his comments?
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coffee_black
Voideater,
No...his field is Meteorology....(the subject at hand) He is a recognized expert in that field, and he is a professor at MIT. I think he can sort out the facts of global warming better than you or I. He isn't afraid to stand up to the powers that be.... he teaches in Cambridge...one of the most liberal cities on the planet. His degree is from Harvard (also in Cambridge) I'm in Cambridge on business a lot.... It is nicknamed the People's Republic of Cambridge by the locals.... Guess why.
No he's probably not an expert in religion... I don't regard myself as an expert in religion... but I can identify a cult when I see one. I have his email address....would you like me to ask him how he reached his conclusions?
Coffee
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mkr32208
Despite what some people might think I'm neither stupid nor uneducated on this issue.
In fact, I've been to THREE climate/global warming seminars in just this last semester. I attended two at UNF one at FCCJ. The science IS settled on global warming. The earth is in a warming trend, case closed zip up your fly DONE that science is settled. The science that is NOT settled is how much influence (if any) we are having on the process. Two of the scientist said, maybe some, one of the scientist said maybe, none but all THREE said; A) nobody really knows for sure B) we should STILL concentrate on lowering emissions and lowering pollution. Which is a point I reiterated before being attacked.
All this "this scientist said absolutely positively 100% _____ " is crap. REAL scientist NEVER say things like that. Any scientist who DOES say something like that is not a real scientist. Politicians, pollsters, JW's, and argumentative Fox news announcers say things like that.
That said, global warming isn't really my main concern. My real concern is water. With no water to drink it won't matter if the average temp at bumfuck, NJ is 71 degrees or 72...
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coffee_black
I emailed Professor Linzen, and he replied.
Re: Global Warming Religeon question?
From: Richard S. Lindzen Sent: Fri 12/28/07 4:32 PM To: debbie Dear Debbie,
As you say, one can usually spot a cult when you see it.
However, pinning things down more concretely is a bit more difficult. Personally, I suspect that the distinction between a cult and a religion is intrinsically fuzzy, and, as a more or less religious individual, I don't think that religion per se is bad.
For example, the founding fathers of the US were commonly deists. They strongly believed (consistent with the Pentateuch) that an infinitely superior G-d who was unknowable by man was an important defense against the claims of human tyrannies. I share this view.
That said, religion is generally characterized by beliefs that are not subject to empirical or logical proof; ie, it is a matter of faith. As a rule, these beliefs serve a variety of purposes. Thus, for many, their religious beliefs constitute an heritage held in common with ancestors and community. If these beliefs encourage generosity and compassion for others, then they are a force for good. I suspect that religion turns into cult when the purposes become very specific and exclusionary. Thus a religion that promises wealth to the believer, and pain and suffering to the non-believer is heading in the direction of cult.
With respect to environmental issues in general and global warming in particular, the transition to religion takes place when a person who is ignorant of the actual science not only believes alarming claims that he or she does not understand, but when that individual wants to believe these claims. The question then arises as to why someone would want to believe such claims. For some, it would appear that the answer is that they have been assured that all scientists agree with such claims. The very thought that all scientists in an immature science like climate all agree on anything (much less with all the numerous unrelated claims) is beyond belief. Nevertheless, for individuals who feel at sea when confronting science that they don't understand at all, it must be reassuring to think that by consenting to the line on global warming, they are safe because all scientists agree. Indeed, they immediately feel intellectually superior to all those who question the claims of global warming. In addition, people are told (quite falsely) that simple gestures like switching to fluorescent bulbs are tantamount to saving the earth. This brings god-like significance to otherwise ordinary lives. The combination of god-like significance attaching to trivial gestures and the feeling of superiority to others is quite a powerful combination. It further offers the opportunity and pleasure of condemning others, and forcing them to change their ways. By this time, one is well on one's way to a cult. For Hollywood types, moreover, belief in global warming offers redemption for dissolute and extravagant life styles.
As with all cults, global warming hysteria, is also subject to cynical exploitation. Hedge funds stand ready to make billions out of trading carbon credits. Snake oil salesmen can know offer carbon offsets to the unwary. Etc. Etc. My hope is that the global warming hysteria comes to an end before too much pain, suffering, and conflict occurs.
Best wishes for 2008,
Dick
At 07:09 PM 12/28/2007, you wrote:Dear Professor Lindzen,
I'm writing to you for an unusual reason. I'm a former Jehovah's Witness, and I post on a forum for xjws that is a support system for many leaving that cult. It's a painful process for many, and the interaction is helpful. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/active/default.ashx
Everything is discussed there...from politics to religion to science...which is a great oulet for newly freed minds.
There have been several threads recently on global warming...and it is disturbing to me to see so many xjws jump on the bandwagon of global warming....and they do act like new converts to a religion. I cited you as an expert, and pointed out that as former cult members we should be able to see the red flags and the same patterns we experienced as jws.
One poster responded that you are not an expert in religion, so are not a credible source in that regard. I responded that I'm not an expert on religion either, but I can spot a cult when I see one. Further, you are a recognized expert in Meteorology, and are certainly far more qualified to sort fact from fiction in regards to global warming than anyone posting on the forum.
Would you comment on how you came to your conclusion regarding global warming becoming a religion? It would really help. Please feel free to visit the forum and comment if you'd like. I'm known as coffee_black there.
Thank you for your time...and Happy New Year!
Regards,
Debbie************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I removed his email address for obvious reasons...and my last name... I am really impressed that he replied...and so quickly!
Coffee
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uninformed
Hey MKR--------------
In fact, I've been to THREE climate/global warming seminars in just this last semester. I attended two at UNF one at FCCJ. The science IS settled on global warming. The earth is in a warming trend, case closed zip up your fly DONE that science is settled. The science that is NOT settled is how much influence (if any) we are having on the process. Two of the scientist said, maybe some, one of the scientist said maybe, none but all THREE said; A) nobody really knows for sure B) we should STILL concentrate on lowering emissions and lowering pollution. Which is a point I reiterated before being attacked.
All this "this scientist said absolutely positively 100% _____ " is crap. REAL scientist NEVER say things like that. Any scientist who DOES say something like that is not a real scientist. Politicians, pollsters, JW's, and argumentative Fox news announcers say things like that.
That said, global warming isn't really my main concern. My real concern is water. With no water to drink it won't matter if the average temp at bumfuck, NJ is 71 degrees or 72...
Are you 100% sure that the science is settled on global warming?
Brant
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mavie
mkr, your post is the best post I've seen here yet. The Earth is warming, case closed. That science is settled.
coffee black, i'm curious why you think xjw's who believe the Earth's climate is changing, based on conclusions reached by many climatologists that have analyzed the massive amounts of data available today, are similar to cultists. Which of the 4 basic categories of cult behavior do you see in action? It seems like an ad hominem attack attempting to discredit those who have examined the evidence for themselves and reached a conclusion. -
mkr32208
Well uniformed, I'm NOT A SCIENTIST! I'M A GOOFBALL STUDENT!!!! So (like the goofballs on Fox) I can say things like "the science is settled! The earth will be a fireball within the next two weeks!" and "GB is the best president since the last one!"
Non of the real scientist would say something like that! Luckily for me I'm not going to be a scientist (don't have the constitution for it) I'm going to be a nurse so I'm allowed to be an opinionated asshole... In fact you might even say it's a job requirement!
On a serious note, to do any sort of accurate study on the temperature of the entire planet would be more involved, time consuming and costly than any other scientific study in the history of mankind. It would take a couple thousand years and our great great great (times 10) grandkids would probably sit around their computers and have this exact same argument. Wouldn't it be BETTER to spend that money investing in large solar and wind farms instead of continuing to pollute on the off chance that we are or are not part of the problem??
I mean Jesus, that seems like common sense to me! Hey lets keep dumping shit in the ocean on the off chance that Jesus is going to come back and clean them up... I just DO NOT UNDERSTAND that reasoning... Really, just don't get it...
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uninformed
MKR
you wrote:
On a serious note, to do any sort of accurate study on the temperature of the entire planet would be more involved, time consuming and costly than any other scientific study in the history of mankind. It would take a couple thousand years and our great great great (times 10) grandkids would probably sit around their computers and have this exact same argument. Wouldn't it be BETTER to spend that money investing in large solar and wind farms instead of continuing to pollute on the off chance that we are or are not part of the problem??
Mkr-- I REALLY agree with your comment above!
As a matter of fact I have a solar and wind power magazine upstairs that I am reading. When I build again, I hope to use some of the new technology.
To be really truthful, I am 61. If the US and general motors, ford etc would have begun developing a solar powered vehicle when I was a kid, we would be free of the need for foreign oil. BUT, until they find a way to TAX us on energy from the Sun, we won't be seeing it.
Did you know that in a square 3 feet by 3 feet in direct sunlight that the sun provides 55 horsepower!!!???
I truly don't think man is changing the climate, but agree with you that alternative sources for energy are a good idea. Not the Ethanol shit either. What a crock.
Brant
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mkr32208
I know.
The amount of energy that just heats the sand around Vegas is STAGGERING! I wasn't kidding about a solar farm in the desert near Vegas supplying enough energy for the entire US. People start screaming about cost but you know what, we NEED something like that in this country. It would be sort of a WW2 for our generation. If we had to tighten our belts a bit and pull together, it's about time we DID instead of just squabbling while our leaders screw us over and living on CC while the country goes to hell.