My interpretation of your post was based on the tone you wrote in. Your tone came across as sarcastic and condescending.
Onacruse said: So, then, would it be improper for me to anticipate that any "speaking in tongues" would be in Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic?
Yes, you could expect that, however according to Acts 2 the 120 followers of Christ preached the word of God in known languages of the world at that time. The primary purpose of tongues is the promotion of the gospel.
Secondly, you are misunderstanding subjective and objective. It is not the language that the New Testament was written is is what is objective, but the meaning and concepts of the words and terms used in the New Testament that is objective. These words and the concepts that they represent had meaning to the writers and recipients. This is the objectivity of the word that supersedes any word of knowledge or prophecy (whether uttered in tongues or not).
Thirdly, no charismatic or Pentecostal that I am aware of believes that tongues are "inspired." I would refer you to two of the leading Pentecostal theologians, Gordon Fee and Stanley Horton for verify this statement. Also Myer Pearlman, who was a leading Pentecostal theologian in the early to mid 1900s held the same view. This is why any word of prophecy or wisdom as well as interpretations of a tongues manifestation are subject to the New Testament.
The Gift of Speaking in Tongues?
by Maddie 66 Replies latest jw friends
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XJW4EVR
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onacruse
XWJ4EVR, thank you for responding to my post. I would like to offer a couple of observations about your response:
It is not the language that the New Testament was written is is what is objective, but the meaning and concepts of the words and terms used in the New Testament that is objective.
But aren't words, with all their linguistic developments and subtle nuances of cultural history and usage, thereby intrinsically subjective?
These words and the concepts that they represent had meaning to the writers and recipients.
They had meaning to those writers, and those recipients, within the framework of their own human experience and knowledge: Not exactly what one could characterize as objective.
This is the objectivity of the word that supersedes any word of knowledge or prophecy (whether uttered in tongues or not).
No word is objective, as it reflects from without, and is interpreted from within.
Even the word that Paul uniquely used, theopneustos (God-breathed, inspired), is only interpretable by reason of it's use outside of the Biblical context. Therefore, it too is subjective, and coupled with non-Christian cultures and religious viewpoints.
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hmike
Chalam,
I agree with you. Those that believe tongues are a sign of salvation are in the minority. They probably derive this belief from the examples in the book of Acts.
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PEC
I have two words, for those that truly believe, that Speaking in Tongues is real, mental masturbation. Philip
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jgnat
I went to a church that practiced it and I've done it.
Consider it like stream-of-consciousness babble, coming from our inexpressible parts of our mind. The heart is engaged, it is meaningful for the speaker, but perhaps it is not meant to be interpreted by anybody. You know, like grief, sometimes too deep to be expressed fully in words. The same with love, joy, and spiritual estacy. It can get like that when you consider the breadth of the universe and listen to the chords of life. Like Northern Lights dancing across the sky of your awareness.
How our church got around those scriptures is if someone broke out in tongues outside the order of the service, an interpretation was required. If the whole church however, broke out in tongues, it was more like a "joyful noise" and no interpretation was required.
I think if someone "spoke in tongues" as I've described above, it's not an ego thing.
Don't you think JW's have had it drilled in to them that if anyone claimed to be of the "anointed" they had to think of themselves as exclusive and "special" somehow? That's what happens if you break it off as a "class" of people and make it an exclusive club.
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serotonin_wraith
http://www.christianchallenge.org/departingupc/DU008.html
I don't agree with much of what is written there, but I thought this point was interesting-
Speaking in tongues did not simply reappear with the Pentecostals in the early 1900s. The Mormons were practicing glossolalia and prophecy in the 1800s. They continue to do so to this day.
Did you know that speaking in 'unknown' tongues is a factor with just about every occult religion in the world. Fundamental Muslims also practice glossolalia, not to mention Hindus and the Haitian religions of the Caribbean.
See where it gets murky? Where do we make the distinction between what is practiced in Pentecostalism and what is practiced in Mormonism?
So if it's found in many religions, don't they cancel each other out? If Hindus speaking in tongues wouldn't get unbelievers to start believing in Krishna (well I hope no one here would be taken in by that!) then how can Christians doing it be convincing to anyone with the ability to think? Whatever's going on in Hinduism and other beliefs, it's not their god's spirit, is it? Their gods don't exist.
If it's your one true god getting involved with them, how do you know Krishna isn't getting involved when you think Yahweh's spirit is with you?
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Chalam
Hi hmike,
"I agree with you. Those that believe tongues are a sign of salvation are in the minority. They probably derive this belief from the examples in the book of Acts."
Well the Bible shows that speaking in tongues is a sign that someone has be Baptised In The Spirit.
Acts 19 (New International Version)
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied.
So it is quite clear, people need to believe (be saved) and they they are ready to be Baptised in the Spirit and receive the gifts of the Spirit.
Just to make it clear, true speaking in tongues is not something you can work up yourself, is not babel but a heavenly prayer language and is a gift from God for those who believe.
Regards,
Stephen -
Maddie
Emotions of entire audiences can be changed. It happens at rock concerts and cinemas every day. Think of the scene in Independence Day when the President gives his rousing speech. Everyone feels a part ofsomething bigger, something powerful. Others cheer so it feels natural to join in.
SEROTONIN - I have to agree with you on the above as I have studied a little about crowd behaviour in Psychology. Thanks for reminding me, it probably accounts for a lot.
CHALAM - Just to make it clear, true speaking in tongues is not something you can work up yourself, is not babel but a heavenly prayer language and is a gift from God for those who believe.
If it is a gift from God today, then this is how I would expect it to be - not babel and not a frenzied state which a person has brought on by their own merit.
JGNAT -
Don't you think JW's have had it drilled in to them that if anyone claimed to be of the "anointed" they had to think of themselves as exclusive and "special" somehow? That's what happens if you break it off as a"class" of people and make it an exclusive club.
JW's put the anointed and God in an exclusive little box of their own, which shuts everyone else out of a personal relationship with God. They steal a persons spirituality which is wicked IMO
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Sparkplug
I went to a church that practiced it and I've done it.
Consider it like stream-of-consciousness babble, coming from our inexpressible parts of our mind. The heart is engaged, it is meaningful for the speaker, but perhaps it is not meant to be interpreted by anybody. You know, like grief, sometimes too deep to be expressed fully in words. The same with love, joy, and spiritual estacy. It can get like that when you consider the breadth of the universe and listen to the chords of life. Like Northern Lights dancing across the sky of your awareness.
How our church got around those scriptures is if someone broke out in tongues outside the order of the service, an interpretation was required. If the whole church however, broke out in tongues, it was more like a "joyful noise" and no interpretation was required.
I think if someone "spoke in tongues" as I've described above, it's not an ego thing.
Thank you for that. I have always wondered what it was like for someone who did it. very interesting.
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Sunspot
Being aware of how the WTS belittle and demonizes everything that THEY do not believe in, I was a bit skeptical about this practice as well. On an Easter Sunday just after I had begun to attend church, I was up at the altar, kneeling alongsde one other gentleman and the Pastor was praying over him, asking that he be given strength and comfort to face the problem he had been plagued with.
Then as he came to me (six inches away) the Pastor was saying how the congregation was so pleased to have me with them knowing what a battle I had faced with both my health and with pulling out of the WTS. It was at that point he began speaking in tongues...in the same tone and not overly drawing attention to himself in the least.
It took a moment or two for me to even realize what he was doing...he had just "slid into it"" so easily and comfortably. I thought so THIS is what they were talking about. It was the first time I had seen this done. I did recognize a few of words as being in Hebrew, and he only did this for possibly a minute ....(no, on second thought I don't think it was even THAT long). But there was nothing pretentious or showy at all.
This tiny little church out here in the boondocks has two former JWs and two that had studied and never became baptized, so I am "right at home" on many levels there. The attendance is like a bookstudy....it runs about 25 or so on the average!
hugs,
Annie