The Gift of Speaking in Tongues?

by Maddie 66 Replies latest jw friends

  • hmike
    hmike

    Chalam,

    I can't tell if there is any disagreement here or not. As I understand the New Testament, a person receives the Holy Spirit and is born again in response to faith in Jesus as the Christ, Son of God in the flesh (1 John). I do not see that this has to be accompanied by speaking in tongues. The presence of the Holy Spirit can be manifested in many ways, not always so spectacular.

    There are problems with making doctrine out of the events in Acts:

    -There is no mention of tongues accompanying most conversions mentioned. Maybe it's an argument from silence, but wouldn't it have been important enough to mention if it happened?

    -Whenever tongues accompanied conversion, at least one apostle was involved. You would have to say that it would be necessary to have an apostle to lay hands on someone for this to happen which is impossible today since the apostles have been gone for 1900 years.

    -In the particular scripture you referred to, Acts 19, the Ephesians only knew of John the Baptist and the baptism of repentance—they didn't even know of Jesus.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi hmike,
    Thanks for your post-please see below.

    "I can't tell if there is any disagreement here or not. As I understand the New Testament, a person receives the Holy Spirit and is born again in response to faith in Jesus as the Christ, Son of God in the flesh (1 John). I do not see that this has to be accompanied by speaking in tongues. The presence of the Holy Spirit can be manifested in many ways, not always so spectacular."

    OK the Bible says we receive the Holy Spirit or are 'sealed' with Him on believing i.e. being born again and saved.

    However, the 'baptism of the Spirit' is a separate thing. One of the main outward signs that this has taken place is speaking in tongues or prophesying.


    "There are problems with making doctrine out of the events in Acts:

    -There is no mention of tongues accompanying most conversions mentioned. Maybe it's an argument from silence, but wouldn't it have been important enough to mention if it happened?"

    Well if you have understood that one receives the Spirit on believing but can receive baptism in the Spirit at any time afterward then I trust this makes more sense now?


    "-Whenever tongues accompanied conversion, at least one apostle was involved. You would have to say that it would be necessary to have an apostle to lay hands on someone for this to happen which is impossible today since the apostles have been gone for 1900 years."

    No, anyone can be converted and receive Spirit baptism at the same time. In fact it is preferable! One does not need to be an apostle. Neither do many of us believe that the apostles ended 1900 years ago. Paul outlined many roles here

    Ephesians 4:11
    It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

    Any nowhere said they would finish until 'perfection comes' see here

    1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)
    But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

    That is why you still see people speaking in tongues, laying hand on people etc. as the New Testament details.

    "-In the particular scripture you referred to, Acts 19, the Ephesians only knew of John the Baptist and the baptism of repentance—they didn't even know of Jesus."

    Those who received John's baptism of repentance were in a position before Jesus had died.

    So they had repented but this is the first step in being saved.

    2 Corinthians 7:10
    Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

    But one need to do this

    Romans 10:9
    That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    More good verses on salvation.

    Romans 5:9-11
    9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

    Titus 3:5
    he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.


    Regards,
    Stephen

  • Maddie
    Maddie

    Chalam - However, the 'baptism of the Spirit' is a separate thing.

    I am not sure I understand the significance of why its different and what is it for? I find it confusing

    Maddie

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi maddie,
    No problems!

    There is much that can seem confusing if one is only studying. Take driving for example, you could read all day about how to operate the clutch, gears, accelerator and brakes but it is only when you sit in a car that all will become clear.

    You need the key to turn the car on first or you are going nowhere. That is Jesus. John 14:5-7 (New International Version)

    Jesus the Way to the Father

    5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
    6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Here is how.

    You need an awareness of sin (that is the Holy Spirit's job and He will lead you to understand you have done things wrong).
    You need to be repent (be prepared to leave those wrong things behind)
    You need to be born again (spiritually, not physically)
    You need to eat of Jesus' flesh and drink his blood (spiritually also-the bread and wine represents this)
    You need to believe and confess that Jesus is Lord, he came in the flesh, was crucified and was raised from the dead to pay for your sin and so you can be reconciled with God.

    If you need any verses on these then feel free to ask.

    The thing is that the gifts of the Spirit, Spirit baptism and the like are more advanced. You don't need them but would you want to drive a car in first gear for the rest of your life?

    All the best,
    Stephen

  • Low-Key Lysmith
    Low-Key Lysmith

    It's a bunch of improvised gibberish,

    "blahlalalalala goobylalapoogleebeebee"- ridiculous. It doesn't take Holy Spirit to prompt someone to spout a bunch of babble.

  • hmike
    hmike

    Looks like Maddie just about got the full range of opinions.

    Chalam,

    OK about the apostles. I know many consider that position still active. Even though it only means "sent one," I see it as referring to those directly commissioned by Jesus, either before or after resurrection. Nevertheless, I consider all the gifts still in operation today, not ended when the canon was set, as some teach.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi hmike,
    Yes about the apostles have a look here for starters.

    http://www.newfrontiers.xtn.org/about-us/faqs/apostolic-ministry/

    Regards,
    Stephen

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