by JH 39 Replies latest jw friends
Proplog2
I get your point. My ability to quote specific scriptures is a bit rusty, but since you're so adamant that Jesus was a strict passivist,
could you give me the scriptures where JESUS condemned war under ANY circumstances? I would like Jesus' words....not Paul's,
or John's, or Timothy's, or any other man. Only the words from Jesus' mouth. I will rethink my stance.
Journey: I would prefer to list ALL of the scriptures against war in the "New Testament" however there are enough principles set forth in the words of Jesus to argue against War. Sermon on the Mount: Happy are the peaceable since they will be called 'sons of God' (God's People) Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness sake. Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brothers will be accountable to the court of justice. You heard that it was said Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. However, I say to you : Do not resist him that is wicked. You heard that it was said you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However I say to you : Continueto love your enemies. Before Pontius Pilate John 18:35-37 "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, ,my attendants woul have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews."
Sorry, Proplog2.....too vague. If you take the entire context of the Bible to account, there is a time for war and a time for peace.
You should strive for peace. All stops should be pulled first to attain peace. But, sometimes, it is necessary to fight a righteous war.
wha happened: What's preventing leaders from committing sins. They are just people. Look at the hypocrisy of the Early Jewish Christians. They were openly prejudiced against Gentile Christians. Even after they were counseled. The Apostle Paul found that situation very frustrating. Some of the Apostles were trying to get special positions of authority from Jesus. Peter denied Christ. In spite of all of this you can expect something unique about a group of people who would get the label "the holy ones". Who are the people that are so different from the world that the world would use that "difference" against them to persecute them. Pretend the Bible is really true. Pretend there is some group that stands out. Who are they? Don't try to argue that there are some in all religions. That idea doesn't fit the model of Christians making up a flock with leaders who struggle to keep sheep-like ones in the fold.
Pretend? I have no idea where u are going with this. None of my post mentions my refuting scripture. But you did mention something important in the end about leaders who struggle to keep sheep-like ones in the fold. That within itself is enough to disqualify the leaders of the WTB&TS. Court records prove that they do not have the sheep in mind. I know your next post will request proof. I have it, it's in my home office, and I will post it tonight.
wha happened: Imagine this situation. A young brother of 25 conducts a congregation bookstudy. Bookstudy conductors are supposed to know the appearance of their flock. So he notices that there is a sister who only gets 3 hours per month in service. He also knows that she has 7 kids all under 10 years of age. She has an alcoholic husband who is disfellowshipped and often unemployed. He can't go by her house because of the chaos there so he arranges to meet her at the home where she attends bookstudy. He then reads her a few scriptures about seeking first the kingdom and then presents her with a nicely ruled page with 7 columns for each day of the week and 32 rows of half hour intervals, and proceeds to construct a schedule that will allow her to spend more time in field service. I was that young brother 35 years ago. I moved out of state. I don't remember that poor sisters name. She must be over 70 by now. I regret that incident. So save your time. You don't need to look up some crazy incident or incidents. We all have been victims & persecutors of our fellow believers. BUT.... That has nothing to do with whether the organization as a whole is committed to and is exemplary in showing Christian love by 1. Spreading the Gospel 2. Avoiding Nationalism and its horrible wars all the while keeping close in mind the end of this world. Go ahead judge them for their imperfections. There are now close to 7 million of these "misled" people. How hard should it be to come up with some nasty little tidbits to pass around here. But after you have finished sifting through the garbage PLEASE show me another group of people you feel are more deserving of the label - "God's Special People". You can eliminate all of those who have a modern history of Killing their fellow believers on the battle field.
Journey On: Too Vague. Just TOO VAGUE. That's all you can say? Would YOU mind being more SPECIFIC YOURSELF? For instance when you are referring to the context of the Bible do you realize that Jesus was doing just that. He told them "you used to be told that it was eye for an eye". That was the old context. "You used to be told that you had to love your neighbor but... (new context) ...I'm telling you to love your enemy!!" So, in the context of "THE BIBLE" Jesus changed a few things. How dare you come at me about context when one of the conditions you made for my response is that I use only Jesus' words and forget about Paul etc. Here is how you set this up (because you are so concerned about context) "could you give me the scriptures where JESUS condemned war under ANY circumstances? I would like Jesus' words....not Paul's, or John's, or Timothy's, or any other man. Only the words from Jesus' mouth. I will rethink my stance." A time for war and a time for peace. YES! And Jesus indicated that his followers would leave the vengeance part up to the one who has the right to give and take lives. Jesus gave his life. This was for an example. And he got his life back. ...but you give your opinion which is "under some circumstances war is permissable" By this I am guessing you believe its OK for humans to drop atomic bombs, or cluster bombs, drop napalm, infest farmers fields with explosive mines, impose co-lateral suffering on civilian populations either directly by killing or maiming little children, or starving them to death. ALL of this is OK because after all your enemy would do this to you too.
So sorry for my lousy formatting. Using fire fox.
wha happened: Imagine this situation. A young brother of 25 conducts a congregation bookstudy. Bookstudy conductors are supposed to know the appearance of their flock. So he notices that there is a sister who only gets 3 hours per month in service. He also knows that she has 7 kids all under 10 years of age. She has an alcoholic husband who is disfellowshipped and often unemployed. He can't go by her house because of the chaos there so he arranges to meet her at the home where she attends bookstudy. He then reads her a few scriptures about seeking first the kingdom and then presents her with a nicely ruled page with 7 columns for each day of the week and 32 rows of half hour intervals, and proceeds to construct a schedule that will allow her to spend more time in field service.
I was that young brother 35 years ago. I moved out of state. I don't remember that poor sisters name. She must be over 70 by now. I regret that incident.
So save your time. You don't need to look up some crazy incident or incidents. We all have been victims & persecutors of our fellow believers. BUT.... That has nothing to do with whether the organization as a whole is committed to and is exemplary in showing Christian love by 1. Spreading the Gospel 2. Avoiding Nationalism and its horrible wars all the while keeping close in mind the end of this world. Go ahead judge them for their imperfections.
There are now close to 7 million of these "misled" people. How hard should it be to come up with some nasty little tidbits to pass around here. But after you have finished sifting through the garbage
PLEASE show me another group of people you feel are more deserving of the label - "God's Special People".
You can eliminate all of those who have a modern history of Killing their fellow believers on the battle field.
reformatted:
Journey On:
Too Vague. That's all you can say? Just TOO VAGUE. Would YOU mind being more SPECIFIC YOURSELF?
For instance when you are referring to the context of the Bible do you realize that Jesus was doing just that. He told them "you used to be told that it was eye for an eye". That was the old context. "You used to be told that you had to love your neighbor but... (new context) ...I'm telling you to love your enemy!!"
So, in the context of "THE BIBLE" Jesus changed a few things. How dare you come at me about context when one of the conditions you made for my response is that I use only Jesus' words and forget about Paul etc.
Here is how you set this up (because you are so concerned about context)
"could you give me the scriptures where JESUS condemned war under ANY circumstances? I would like Jesus' words....not Paul's, or John's, or Timothy's, or any other man. Only the words from Jesus' mouth. I will rethink my stance."
A time for war and a time for peace. YES! And Jesus indicated that his followers would leave the vengeance part up to the one who has the right to give and take lives.
Jesus gave his life. This was for an example. And he got his life back. ...but you give your opinion which is
"under some circumstances war is permissable"
By this I am guessing you believe its OK for humans to drop atomic bombs, or cluster bombs, drop napalm, infest farmers fields with explosive mines, impose co-lateral suffering on civilian populations either directly by killing or maiming little children, or starving them to death. ALL of this is OK because after all your enemy would do this to you too.
The only important one I knew back in the 60's and 70's was Brother Knorr. Is he still the grand poopa?
If he ever dies, theyll have to fold up the house of cards.
