Where is God when it hurts?

by theistichedonist 34 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  VoidEater

  How, in an atheistic worldview does a person who persists in abuse (particularly religious abuse), mind-control, evil, etc... get repaid for the evil that they have sown?

  As a survivor of childhood abuse (and non-believer in "God"), my worldview is that "justice" is a man-created notion that man alone implements. My abusers will never "pay" for their actions. I am compassionate enough to prefer the end of suffering, rather than the perpetuation of suffering on my behalf. There is no need for repayment. I'm alive, they're dead. Kinda puts a line under it.

  If you have journeyed towards atheism as a result of religious abuse, do you sense that atheism satisfies an innate cry for the satisfaction of justice in the face of the evil you or others have experienced?

  I have journeyed towards atheism as a result of a lack of evidence to the contrary, and perhaps "religious abuse" is an example of God's absence to me. But since I do not seek satisfaction nor justice from a theistic source, atheism doesn't need to satisfy any similar craving. The "innate cry" comes from my humanity, the soft body of the animal I am, not the spiritual essence of my being. So, no, the two don't really seem all the connected to me.

  The OP seems to put justice in a cosmic sense. I don't look to the cosmic for justice, and I think karma takes place entirely on the Earthly plane.

  EDIT: Gopher's Epicurus quote provides the best argumentation I've yet seen.
• 

  Dogaradodya

  Excuse me but I'm just dropping this bomb so I can be a Jedi in 100 days and be able to start Star Wars.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aoUxKfHS9I
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Satanus,
  "Can you put that in your own words. The bible has been enterpreted ad nauseum and used for all kinds of crap. Your words, please. "
  
  I agree, people have used the Bible and God's name for the good, the bad and the ugly! You will recognise some of my beliefs below because they are not only mine but those of other like minded believers too. Ultimately, I believe it is God's words that are important, not mine but I understand how it is difficult for ex JWs and similar cults which purport to follow the Bible without putting up defenses. Also, if we can't speak what we believe in our own words from our own heart and mind then it doesn't say very much for our faith does it?
  
  OK those verses from 2 Peter paraphrased and explained in my own words.
  
  Well with God time is immaterial (He created it and exists equally at all times). That also explains why He is not slow at keeping His promise because it relates to our limited view of time.
  However, God is just and will keep His promise (in fact all of them). He is very patient with us and He does not want to judge us guilty of our wrong doings, as He is pure love but wants us to recognise them and say we are truly sorry.
  
  Don't put it off forever getting right with God because the option will not be there indefinitely and God is not only love but also just and true.
  This world will not last forever as it is and one day we all will have to account for every aspect of our lives before Almighty God. Excuses and tears won't help but knowing Jesus (and Him knowing you) will.
  
  All the best,
  Stephen
• 

  snowbird

  So, in other words, God HAS the power to do something about all the evil and suffering, but isn't acting now.

  When I see people act in a humane manner towards others, I see God in action. In my lifetime, I've witnessed the eradication of much evil and suffering - a lot of it emotional. The Light continues to shine in the darkness.

  He has allowed suffering for many generations, why?

  No one can say with certainty. But, having tasted of His goodness, I know He has good reasons for doing so.

  And he will continue until perhaps many more generations pass, and we're supposed to be happy about it?

  We're no more happy about it than were people of the past. "How long?" was a prevailing theme of many of the Bible writers.

  Well, I guess he's God Almighty, and he can run things any way he wants to.

  Fo' shizzle.

  Sylvia
• 

  Gopher

  Some people see God "in action", others of us see God's "inaction". The question asked by the original poster still stands.

  Yes there are acts of kindness, these are acts of humanitarianism that spring from love of humanity. God doesn't necessarily have to be involved in such.

  There's no final evidence one way or another about the existence of God, so until he/she/it makes themself very plainly manifest, the question "Where is God" still will stand unanswered.
• 

  theistichedonist

  To all who have graciously replied:

  Thank-you for your comments! Another thing that I have noticed is that newbies who invite others to discuss an incredibly large topic can invite so many responses that they don't have the time to adequately respond to all the insightful posts. If, in the future my interaction is sparse, I am tring to balance my time between work, a great family, school, study and responses. Forgive me if I don't catch up as fast as I should.

  One quick response to funkyderek: I like your handle! I didn't mean for mine to invoke visions of a "fish doctor"! LOL

  If this better helps anyone understand me more, I am a theistic hedonist.

  I'll catch up later!
• 

  nvrgnbk

  I am a theistic hedonist

  How's that working out for you?
• 

  theistichedonist

  Sorry for taking so long to respond.

  Also, I am not a Witness myself, nor have I ever been one. I was attracted to this board because I share the disappointment that ex-Witnesses go through when someone says, "God said" and he didn't. Another attraction for me has been to see the helpful insights that ex-Witnesses have. (Who says that the WT has a corner on insights into the Scriptures )

  A few preliminary remarks before I respond:

  1. When I use the term God (in a sense that I don't qualify or elaborate on), this is what I mean: An entity who is uncreated.

  2. I'll pass over some of the tart remarks. BTW, not all comments that I pass up on are tart - some are quite good! (i.e. "Where is God when it doesn't")

  3. In musing about this question of justice / evil, etc.. (and where do you as an atheist stand on this), I am not so much concerned with putting forward a proof for the existence of God based on our desires for justice, I am aiming at a different kind of question - namely: Are the kinds of things that we experience as people (for example, in the first post, our notions of justice, right / wrong, etc...) explicable if we are ultimately the product of an unguided / impersonal origin? If atheism is a defensible position, is it a fair conclusion to believe that people are the product of an impersonal / unguided process?

  gopher: Thank-you for your post. When you say that you are an atheist, would this mean that you believe that there is no God? Some atheists like to make a clever qualification to their claim of atheism that goes something like this: "Atheism = a lack of evidence (of God's existence) to the contrary."

  It seems to me that atheism involves a denial of God's existence that is due (in the view of the atheist) to the lack of proof to the contrary. Is this second definition your view? It seem that this view differentiates between agnosticism and atheism.

  Another question: Does your atheism entail the belief that what has ultimately produced us is time + (impersonal matter) + chance? Forgive me for the crude formula - I simply want to know if what we see today in people is the result of the interaction of impersonal matter and chance forces.

  Also, thank-you for the quote from Epicurus! I am still mulling it over!

  funkeyderek: "...the purpose of punishment is deterrence and prevention. Our lust for revenge is an instinct we should strive to overcome."

  Deterrence and prevention - definately two of the main reasons for punishment. If the primary reason for punishment is to pay back for a wrong, there are a number of cases where seeking pure punishment doesn't seem to "pay back" anything. On the lust for revenge - I definately agree that we should strive to overcome this lust. I find that one who lusts for revenge is usually unable to keep from dishing out more pain than the offense calls for.

  Phillip: "The critical thinking skills gained by and after leaving the cult, allow us to see that science is correct and fairytale stories written my men are not."

  I heartily celebrate your desire to think.

  Satanus: You wrote to Chalam: Chalam
  
  Can you put that in your own words. The bible has been enterpreted ad nauseum and used for all kinds of crap. Your words, please.

  I share your frustration with the scads of different ways that the Bible has been interpreted. However, simply because a thing has been interpreted many ways and been used for all kinds of crap (which is true of the Bible) - it doesn;t follow that Chalam's citations should be excluded on those grounds. One of the stinky things about this world is that there are few good things that have not been interpreted or used in many ways for all kinds of crap (beer - DUI deaths / nuclear energy - Hiroshima / internet - predators / goverment and laws - politicians / computers - weapon delivery systems, etc...).

  nvrgnbk: "I am a theistic hedonist"

  How's that working out for you?

  This is why I describe myself as a "theistic hedonist":

  1. The term "religious" in the context of this forum can imply a kind of "pulling oneself up by his / her moral bootstraps" so as to become pleasing to God. I find the that quest to be good for God (so as to earn forgiveness or repay Him for my evil deeds) is a dead-end that ends up pulling those who engage in such a quest, into Pharisee-ism or despair.

  2. I don't care for commands for obedience that are divorced from a clear display of God's heart.

  3. I seek (not because I am a fine person, BTW) to pursue a pleasure in God.

  wikipedia has a good article on Christian hedonism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hedonism

  The pursuit is awesome!

  Forgive me if some of the ideas that I have expressed are unclear - I'm tired.
• 

  erynw

  There's no final evidence one way or another about the existence of God, so until he/she/it makes themself very plainly manifest, the question "Where is God" still will stand unanswered.

  I agree with you on this Gopher.
• 

  momzcrazy

  My new opinion since leaving is this: I think we are on this planet as a testing, or refining. If we learn from our problems and progress from them to do good, when we die the Father God or Mother Goddess send us to a more peaceful planet. If not, then we get to be born again here for another try. I think there are more populated planets out there and we here on earth have just not learned what we need so we can be on the more peaceful planets.

  momz