Cousin agrees, Questioning the FADS isn't wrong...now he wants more.

by dawg 22 Replies latest jw friends

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  dawg

  OK, so all of you know about my letter writing campaign; I've had several break throughs and just as many disappointments... about what I expected. I'd say the response to my letters has been 50/50.

  So, the last few weeks, I've been recieveing e-mail replies from one of my cousins. He conseedes the fact that it isn't "apostacy" to question the FADS.... this after much coaching on my part.

  But i gave him three things to look into, one was why it is apostacy in this dumb assesd religion to question the men in the GB. the other was 607BC thing and the last one was more tricky. So here's where I need your help.

  THe last question had to do with Revelation 7, in conjunction with John 6... In John 6 Jesus says that anyone who doesn't eat my body and drink my blood can't have everlasting life. He writes me back and says that the scripture isnt't literal.... I say I know that that's why I memtioned Rev7...I was trying to get him to see that there's no scriptual basis for the 144k, and that all Christians should partake...

  So, here's my question, and I have only a few JW books to answer it, does the JWs have any real scriptual basis for the 144K? If so, where do they get it? WHat is the basis that just the annointed should partake of the sacramants? ANd what answers do you thik ole cuz will come up with in reguards to this quirie? HUff
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  B_Deserter

  Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?
  
  The apostle John wrote: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand.” (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase “those who were sealed” refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.
  
  After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming “great tribulation,” which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.
  
  Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, “those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group, “a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.
  
  Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion—that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: “It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.” (The Apocalypse or “The Day of the Lord,” page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: “The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.” He added: “It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”—Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.
  
  Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of “the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about “the thousand years” of Christ’s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.
  
  The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.” (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.
  
  Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:29.
• 

  B_Deserter

  I figured I'd still get some use out of Watchtower Library.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  I posted this on this thread several months ago. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/140754/1.ashx

  Here are my comments

  I hope this won’t take me too long, as being concise isn’t my biggest talent. A recent thread on the 144,000 made me put a couple of things together about the governing body. These are the ones that claim to have authority from Jehovah, to tell the over 6,00,000 that “… although we aren’t masters over anyone’s faith, these 150 items are absolutely prohibited for you to do.” I was always curious how if they weren’t masters over our faith, how they could make so many rules? (oops, I asked a thinking question. I think that is prohibited to, due to the faith weakening nature of logical questions)
  
  Did you know that the “faithful and discreet slave” of Mt 24:45-47 is charged with providing ‘food at the proper time?’ Although the context doesn’t make clear at all what feeding is entailed here, that is all the faithful slave is given: a commission to feed. No authority given here. Besides that, this reference is too cryptic and out of context with the rest of what Jesus said here to really say with any certainty that this “slave” refers to any group. Which is probably why a lot of religions keep silent on it.
  
  The 144,000. Revelation 7 and 14. In Rev 7, we see them from the tribes of Israel, 12,000 each. (Different tribes from the ones in Exodus FYI) In Rev 14, we see them singing! If anything, Revelation shows this number to be a choir, not a code word for a governing body. Again, no where is their a direct or implied giving of authority to this 144,000. They are singers, not rulers.
  
  Where does the authority come from? Answer: Rev 4:4, the 24 elders with crowns on their head. Crowns of authority. This is the only link to the “faithful slave” and the “144,000” being given authority. Do you realize what this means?
  
  There is absolutely positively no bible reference for authority to be given to a “faithful slave” group, and esp for saying the 144,000 has authority. All this crap is simply a big game of biblical connect the dots. Here is the formula
  
  Faithful slave = 144,000 = 24 elders = governing body. (oh yeah, no scripture anywhere in the bible or even a concept describes a governing body. That is a pure invention. Total scriptural fiction.)
  
  That’s it! Total scriptures it takes to get that? FOUR. Four completely out of context scriptures that don’t in any way connect, other then that Freddie Franz said they do.
  
  My only hope in posting this is that if you think that at some point you were disobedient to god because you broke a rule that this group of men made up, just remember that to invent rules, they had to invent themselves first. Scripturally, the governing body doesn’t exist.

  I would add just for the sake of clarity that they only group other then Jesus with crowns of authority in Revelation are the 24 elders. If the GB didn't apply this to themselves, or more importantly, if this group was not found in Revelation, then there would be no authority at all found in the book of Revelation to give to any group.

  The only way that authority can be claimed is for the GB to claim that the 24 elders represent the 144,000 and the governing body. Read Revelation without the "Climax" book a thousand times and you will never see a link between the 24 elders and the 144,000, let alone the FD Slave of Mt 24.
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  dawg

  B.Deserter, you have proven to me that the 144k is literal, I can at least see where they get that. But becasue i'm a crappy writer maybe I didn't ask the question right... I mean the Great crowd mentioned are in heaven, before the throne. SO, I see no earthy link nor why anyone shouldn't partake of the sacraments. WHere do they get that only this literal number should partake? ANd John 6, clearly figurative and speaking of the meal, says that whoever doesn't partake figuratively of Christ's blood and body won't have everlasting life... how do they get that only the 144K are to partake?

  But, your research is valuable, it shows me that cuz will come up with just about the same. But the two classes, where do they get that these guys are earthly and thus shouldn't partake of the meal? I see no link in the only JW book I have, the Revelation book?

  But thanks, I can see what cuz is going to say pre-conversation becasue of you.
• 

  dawg

  Alltimejeff, that was very informative also... that goes along with what I was asking, yet still I'm more concerned aboutthe sacramental links in reguards the great crowd, how they where do they get that just the so called "anointed" should partake...and if the crowd is before the throne and before the lamb, in heaven, how are they earthyly?
• 

  dawg

  come on guys, help a bro out here. Don't let this thread die... I need help.
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  nomoreguilt

  I'm waiting with you dawg......I believe they are getting the scriptural/common sense reasoning together for you.

  NMG
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  worldtraveller

  If you take the number literally, then there should be no more worries in that the quota would have been spoken for thousands of years ago.

  That being said and that the Jehovah corp. is only 135 years old, then I would say that the Witnesses have been wasting a lot of time on an issue closed centuries ago.

  Think about it. Some feel they are the anionted and partake in the ritual. Others, not so sure. Realistically though, just where is this magical scoreboard? Does anyone have a clue if it's full in the "stadium above" ? If you take the bible literally then you should understand that ALL get there if you believe what Jesus says. Otherwise it becomes just a silly game.

  No wonder Christianity is waning and the Nation of Islam is spreading. (God help us).
• 

  Tuesday

  So if I'm reading BDeserter's WT Library comment correctly, the 144,000 is literal because you compare it to the Great Crowd in the same chapter, then in 2 Corinthians they mention "The Number as Sealed". So the follow up would be, why is the Great Crowd symbollic in the very same chapter; along with everything that describes the 144,000 in the same verses but the number alone is literal. You can say "John listed 12 things here, because he said 12 and listed 12 things that number isn't symbollic so not all numbers are symbollic either in Revelation". The 2 Corinthians thing, "the number is sealed" it doesn't say what number, just that a number is sealed. It could be a million, it could be a billion, it could be four. Who knows. I would probably bring up that in 9/10ths of the interpretations of Revelation in the Revalation book 12 is the perfect number and whenever John multiplied it he meant to show how infinitly perfect it was. How much more so 144,000; 12 x 12,000. You're dealing with a belief structure here though Dawg, in the end that whole quote can be broken down that "if you interpret it our way it's literal." No one even questions the 144,000 in the orginization, it's just taken like dogmatic law. You're better off hitting with the fringe elements that have been changing constantly. Things that change, that people have seen change are easier to question than things that have been there their entire life. He would know it was something else before and has the potential to change again.