If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

by serotonin_wraith 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  serotonin_wraith

  I know you mean well Chalam, and I appreciate your research.

  You believe the Biblical god is real, and you want others to see him the way you do.

  I just see your reasons for believing to be bad. In most of your posts, you go to biblegateway.com and use the Bible to back up the Biblical god. This is like using the Lord of the Rings books to show Frodo and the magic ring are real.

  I do see the wonder in the stars, and I'm amazed at the magnitude (and intricacy) of the universe. I just know how stars form (without a god) and I understand that 'big' does not equal 'God'. It just equals 'big'.

  The book you promote talks about stars coming after the Earth formed, and stars falling to Earth, two scientifically disproven ideas one would expect to find in a book from the Iron Age. I don't mind talking in a new thread about any of this, or by PM, so as not to hijack this topic. But I get the feeling you believe in the Biblical god because you want him to exist, not because you have any good reason to. And bad reasons aren't enough for me personally.
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  B_Deserter

  "All you have to do is gaze at the stars, the awesomeness of the magnitude of the universe right down to its creative and intricate details and you will see God's invisible qualities. Call out to Him and He will speak to you. Maybe not as you might expect but keep listening and seeking and you will hear. "
  
  Arguments like this are pure imagination. It basically boils down to the "God exists because I want him to exist" argument. Why does the awesomeness and magnitude of the universe require some man-made magical fairy tale to appreciate? Seriously, it's an awfully arrogant assumption to believe that in the infinitely massive universe, a very small group of men on a very small planet in a very backwards, small corner of the universe figured it all out 2,000+ years ago. What I'm saying is, the "just look around you!" argument is simply not good enough. Especially now, when we know quite a bit about how the universe works, it seems awfully silly to me to attribute it all to an invisible magic man that some ancient herdsmen made up. I interpret the verses you quoted as men imagining the magnitude of the night sky and attempting to make sense of it all. It's a natural human tendency to want to do that. People need an answer to things, and in many cases any answer will do, regardless of its plausibility. Personally, I think it's okay to look at something and say "I don't know" because saying that stimulates a lot more critical thinking and discovery than throwing up your hands, saying "God did it!" and moving on. It's the epitome of intellectual laziness.
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  changeling

  I was born and raised a witness by very "theocratic" parents. They very thought of their being anything else out there was taboo. I had no choice but to be a witness.

  Now that I've faded, I have turned against all religions finding them to be divisive.

  And no, I don't think I'm wrong about that.

  changeling
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  Abandoned

  I wasn't raised in the org, but I have come to the same conclusion as changeling.
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  steve2

  "All you have to do is gaze at the stars, the awesomeness of the magnitude of the universe right down to its creative and intricate details and you will see God's invisible qualities. Call out to Him and He will speak to you. Maybe not as you might expect but keep listening and seeking and you will hear. "

  What an astonishingly bizarre instruction to "call out to Him and He will speak to you". Hello there? One person calls out, and "Allah" answers; another calls out and "Jehovah" answers; yet another calls out and "The Lord" answers, to mention nothing of the millions whose humility in the face of nature leads to such diverse convictions as those held by Buddhism, Hinuism, Shintoism etc. The argument to look at the universe and see "God" has the virtue of being clear; but it defies logic and is based primarily on wishful feel-good thinking.
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  Carmel

  When I left the borg I was very skeptical about all religion. Remained so for nearly twenty years. With a degree in Zoology, Masters in related field, one would think I would be a candidate for remaining either an atheist or better yet agnostic, but it was my formal education in both the hard sciences and in other humanities that allowed me to be "scientific' about judging the claims of a religion. To this day I am open to a better explanation (cosmology) but I don't see it iterated here on JWD or anywhere else my path of inquiry takes me. Of course my religious beliefs are so different than what one typically encounters in Christianity..... be well, carmel
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  Carmel

  Just to add one more note....You may be interested in the "Perry Mason" anology. If you've ever seen one of the old PM tv shows you know that the Prosecuting attorney makes a case that is so convincing one would have to be mad not to deem the poor slob anything but guilty. Then along comes Perry, et al and with a little sleuthing, a slightly different twist of testimony and BINGO, the truth of the matter is revealed. the once falsely accused is found to be totally innocent. I've always waited to cast judgement as there are so many ways of interpreting data, and intuition being the extension of past experiance, I don't totally trust my intuition. It needs testing and trial, which means sometimes a little sufferage and patience. Eventually the truth is discovered and reality begins to emerge.. Trust me, you are fully capable of finding reality if your motives are pure! be well, carmel
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  integ

  I am not a "bible thumping" christian fanatic, but it is obvious that some kind of intelligent "life force" started this whole thing called "life". To say otherwise is simply ridiculous and makes less sense than anything the Jehovahs Witnesses ever said even on their worst day. If you don't want to call that intelligent creative force"God", or "Jehovah" fine, or you don't believe in the biblical God, I can appreciate that. Maybe I'm confused as to what athiests really believe, but it would seem to make sense that SOMETHING created this Universe we live in. It certainly makes more sense than NOTHING created it.

  Not trying to be a jerk but what am I missing here?
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  Vinny

  Another boring atheist thread.
  
  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
  
  
  Integ,
  
  Your post is sensible. I agree with you.
  
  
  Our poor little atheists cannot tell the class how all things today; universe, earth and all complex life thereon comes from nothing by nobody.
  
  
  Our sorry little atheists get stuck in mud with that one.
  
  
  If the most intelligent men cannot make even simple life from dead matter, then please tell the class how COMPLEX LIFE arises with no intelligence at all?
  
  
  The sorry little atheists get stuck in mud with that one too.
  
  
  Seratonin is just blwoing smoke. Nothing new with him here. You just gotta love sorry atheist beliefs like this. They make me smile.
  
  
  The JW's are not the truth. Based on evidence and logic.
  
  
  Some intelligence made the universe, earth and all life. Based on evidence and logic.
  
  
  Throw out the bible is fine with me. (though there is powerful reason for many TOO BELIEVE IT as well....
  
  
  Agnostic is reasonable, IMO.
  
  
  Dead matter, with no Intelligence at all into complex, organized, purposeful things through fat chances and lots O' Luck is stupid foolish, laughable nonsense that buries atheists every single time.
  
  
  No exceptions.
  
  
  And tell the class where that dead matter came from?
  
  
  These threads are always a waste to read.
  
  
  Nothing new here once again but lots of laughing.
  
  
  Let me get back to something less boring than this.
  
  
  You know, like watching dust settle...
  
  
  : )
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  RollerDave

  As a JW I maintained a regimen of constant self-checking to ensure I remained firmly deluded, and towards that end I carefully limited the sources I allowed myself to consider to those permitted.

  The goal was to simultaneously keep a central assertion from being assailed and deny that it was being propped up by any such means.

  As a Christian, I self check just as often, but now I allow myself to consider ANY source and refuse to prop up my assertions. If they cannot be supported by reason and evidence, I don't need 'em.

  It was the limitation and protectionism that ensured I stayed wrong as a JW; and the lack of them that stands me in good stead as a Christian.

  RD