by oompa 28 Replies latest jw friends
Jehovah's Witnesses bought the Diaglott from its translator. Well Russell did that. But they are not responsible for its contents. An essay on the Diaglott and its history is here:
https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-emphatic-diaglott-and-watch-tower.html
WokenfromJWcult:
Another word they mistranslate is Believe as Exercise Faith.
I would agree that "believe" "believes" "believing" are good choices for a translation that bills itself as literal, but to claim that "having faith" is a mistranslation is a perfect example of what I was talking about.
Here is an example of the word in question (πιστεύω) as it's used in Romans 1:16:
Οὐ γὰρ ἐπαισχύνομαι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τοῦ Χριστοῦ·, δύναμις γὰρ θεοῦ ἐστιν εἰς σωτηρίαν παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι Ἰουδαίῳ τε πρῶτον καὶ Ἕλληνι
Here's the rendering in the New World Translation and the New Catholic Bible respectively:
For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, since it is the power of God that offers salvation to everyone who has faith—to Jews first, and then to Gentiles as well.Here's Strong's definition of the word:
πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
"Believe" is clearly not the only correct choice here. The NWT is not the only Bible to use an alternative that still falls within the rules of definition and grammar. And it's not a mistranslation.
TD I can’t read Greek but I can read English. WokenfromJWCult objected to the translation “exercise faith” but what you have defended is a verse where the NWT has “having faith”. I suspect WokenfromJWCult had verses such as John 3:16 in mind.
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (NWT)
Other versions have “believes” in this verse. The Contemporary English Version has “has faith”, but it’s the “exercising” part of the NWT rendering that people tend to find peculiar, rather than the use of “faith” over “believe”. While Watchtower claims that “exercising” reflect the meaning of the Greek verb, I think the suspicion is that Watchtower favours the translation because of its emphasis on “works” over “faith alone”.
https://biblehub.com/parallel/john/3-16.htm
I agree that a lot of criticism of the NWT is misplaced and theologically driven.
The primary criticism about the NWT is that it introduces the name Jehovah in many places even though it is blatantly incorrect to do so. The other is changing the words to completely change the concepts of for example the trinity and heaven and hell, as well as the crucifixion.
It doesn’t take many words to change the meaning of a sentence. But the denial of Christ for example is very atypical in Bibles, Catholics and Protestants made very accurate translations even though it didn’t necessarily support their viewpoints, they would write the inconsistencies off to mythos, allegory etc.
JWs simply took their watchtower publication and used it to make a ‘More accurate translation’ instead of using it the other way around. They pretty much admit, that they believe this is a translation guided by God himself, as he would’ve intended it to be written (in their interpretation of course). I clearly remember in the 80s that they pretty much came out and said that all extant original texts were somehow modified and they somehow distilled the original wording. Although every religion has made a choice to leave out certain books completely from their canon, just like the JW did, the JW simply changed the Bible itself, even though many verses they cannot support the translation from any extant original text.
Slim,
I suspect WokenfromJWCult had verses such as John 3:16 in mind.
It's the same verb in both instances and the same comments apply.
"Believes in him" is probably a better choice than, "Exercises faith in him" but it's not a mistranslation if the rendering still falls within the boundaries of definitions and grammar.
The Complete Jewish Bible, which does not have the same theological axe to grind renders the verse as "trusts in him" which is probably not what people are used to either, but is also not a mistranslation.
Yes it’s the same verb, that’s why I pointed to this verse, which includes the relevant “exercising” rendering that WokenfromJWCult referred to.
Because the part of the rendering that WokenfromJWCult and others object to is the “exercising” part, not the “faith/trust” part, which you have missed.
Here is a defence of the NWT rendering “exercising faith” which addresses the point.
https://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2012/09/exercise-faith-believe-and-new-world.html
It looks like there is no other version that adds “exercising” to render this verb, otherwise Watchtower, or the independent apologist would have referred to it when defending the NWT. It may be an example of what narkissos described as New World overTranslation.
What about the quotes in page 14 of the November 2007 Awake! (in the article called "Which Translation Should I Read?") of Jason David BeDuhn and Dr. Benjamin Kedar regarding the accuracy of the NWT? The topic thread at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/10440/prof-jason-beduhn-letter-on-nwt-kit-part-2 (in the initial post which contains a letter from BeDuhn) makes a very strong comments by DeBunh in support of the NWT. I am astonished by what that letter says.
See also https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/10361/prof-jason-beduhn-letter-on-nwt-kit-part-1 which in post by GinnyTosken includes a letter from BeDuhn in which BeDuhn says the following.
'I wrote a letter to the WBTS, thanking them for providing copies of the KIT free of charge to my class. I did this as a gesture of appreciation. I also took the opportunity to praise what I found to be the merits of the book. The sections of my letter quoted in the Watchtower accurately reflect my views.
... I used the KIT in a gospels course I taught, because I wanted to point out things that are hard to see in the more commonly available translations. Although the students didn't know Greek, by using an interlinear I was able to show them very subtle things in the text, and introduce them to a few Greek terms that are very important to understand.
... "Atrocious, deceitful, and inaccurate" may be what some call the NWT, but such a characterization is completely erroneous. Nearly every message I have received since the Watchtower article came out has claimed that "all reputable scholars," "every Greek or biblical scholar," etc. has condemned the NWT. It often sounds like people are getting this quote from the same source. But whatever the source, it is a lie. I have looked into the matter, and found almost no reviews of the NWT in academic journals.'
http://www.onlytruegod.org/defense/kedar.htm includes a letter by Kedar about the NWT and that letter praises the Hebrew Scriptures sections of the NWT.
It thus appears to me that the WT's Awake! article did not misrepresent the quotes of scholar DeBuhn and scholar Kedar.
In my previous post I included a link to https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/10440/prof-jason-beduhn-letter-on-nwt-kit-part-2 in which I quoted parts from a post (by bj) of a letter by DeBuhn. That same post by bj also included a second letter from DeBuhn. That second letter commented about the lack of a definite article (regarding theos) in the latter part of the Greek of John 1:1. It said what that signifies, namely "the word" was being said as being in the same category of God, rather than making the claim of being God.
DeBuhn explanation is thus in harmony with the WT's NWT translation of "a god". That agrees with what I read more than 12 years ago in a used textbook (which I found in a thrift store) about NT Koine Greek, in regards to John 1:1 and the meaning of a lack of a definite article in such Greek. [I made that discovery when I still thought of myself as a JW, but one doing critical
research regarding the WT's teachings and doing independent research of
the Bible.] Namely that the lack of the definite article (regarding theos) in the latter part of the version was making the claim that "the word" was of the same quality or type of being as God, instead of making the claim that "the word" was God (the God). The WT's translation of "a god" accurately conveys that idea, and is thus an accurate translation of John 1:1.
Hey Slim,
Because the part of the rendering that WokenfromJWCult and others object to is the “exercising” part, not the “faith/trust” part, which you have missed.
I actually understand better than most why the word "exercising" is objectionable. WokenfromJWCult appears to be paraphrasing Robert Bowman so I understand where the argument comes from as well.
The word I am objecting to is "mistranslation", which would be a violation of the rules grammar and definition
The only time πιστεύω needs to be translated as believe/believes/believing is when it is followed by a dative noun.
When it is followed by a preposition like εἰς or ἐπὶ it means more than simple belief and the translator is free to pick an equivalent English expression.
The word "Faith" in English is a noun which requires a verb to function properly. "Exercising" is a weird choice when there are simpler verbs like "Have", "Put" and "Place" that can be used, but that is a theological, not a grammatical debate.
Narkissos (As you point out) called this "overtranslation"
