Frenchy,
Great post!!!
A keeper. Just adding my 2 cents
Chester
Reasons to Quit
by Frenchy 25 Replies latest jw friends
-
chester
-
Frenchy
Thank you all for your kind comments. Path, it's good to see you again. I especially enjoyed your piece about your friend down in Texas.
Six, I have to say that I don't look at the Bible the way that I once did. Is it inspired of God? I think so but perhaps not in the way that we had the word 'inspired' defined for us. Perhaps God allowed kernels of truth to be revealed through the mind and hearts of men rather than have them act as stenographers as we once argued at the door to those who told us it was 'just a book by men'.
There are reasons for my thinking this. Jesus quoted verbatim from the Greet Septuagint which was not 100% accurate in its rendering of the original Hebrew and Aramaic Text. Now if every word of that text was sacred and unalterable he would not have done that.
There is also the matter of the literalness of the Bible. Jesus was himself a wonderful storyteller. The account of the Garden of Eden has long intrigued me and is very difficult for me to accept literally. The same is true with Noah's flood. Jesus referred to these incidents but that does not make them literal. They serve their purpose just as well if they are allegories or crytic prophecies deliberate set out of time for things yet to come. Jesus gave no additional details on these things but rather just used the material that was already there. I think that is significant.
I am convinced that the Bible is not an ordinary book. Its very controversialness (is that a word?!)suggests otherwise, not to mention its tenacity to survive both physical efforts to destroy it and the never ending war to discredit it. It is not, however, a hand book for religion nor has it ever been. It's misuse has, I believe, caused much of the confusion about the Bible.
The Hebrew Scriptures were compiled as the Jewish faith was being developed. Judaism was not pattered after the Bible but rather the Bible resulted as a result of what Judaism became. The Greek Scriptures did not begin to be written until decades after Christianity was established so Christianity was not cut out of a pattern drawn by the Bible. The Bible (the Greek Scriptures) was instead, produced BY Christianity.
Something that always fascinated me was the wine. (Hey, I know what you're thinking already!) There was no wine at the orginal Passover celebration now, was there? If there ever was a sacred and meaningful event, it was the Passover, something that would not be trifled with lightly or corrupted in any manner. Yet somewhere down the line and without permission from the Scriptures (or God)(nothing recorded in the Bible, at least) the Jews introduced wine into the celebration and there was not a single word of protest from God. To the contrary, Jesus took advantage of that addition and used it to symbolize the initiation of the new covenant with his apostles. (BTW, I think Judas was there for that too but that's another story.) My point is that the Bible did not dictate to the Jews how to worship but rather the way they worshipped got recorded in the Bible.
I think that this somewhat different perspective of the Bible puts it in an entirely different light that the one we, as JW's, used to shine on it.
One more thing about the Bible and I'll leave the subject for now. It's difficult for two people to read the Bible and come away with the same understanding unless that understanding was pre-conceived in the first place, in which case the content of what was read was pre-interpreted. As a rule: People do not read the Bible to understand what it says but rather to lend credence and validity to what they already believe. Religions are shamelessly notorious for doing so and most individuals as well. 'Troubled' mentioned something on his/her thread about once we make up our minds we are not wont to change it again. There is a lot of truth in that. Keeping an open mind is more easily said than done but it must be done in order to benefit from Scripture. I had read the Bible all my life as a witness but i was thoroughly amazed (and pleased) at what I found once I took off those green glasses and began reading what was actually written instead of reading into it what I had been told that it meant.
I encourage any who have not done so to try it. I used to get the members of my book study to read certain passages in the Bible when we were studying the 'Great Teacher' book. I would ask them what it said and they would, of course, immediately parrot the book. I would then stop them and say: "No, don't tell us what the book says about it, but tells us what Jesus' words actually say." You should have seen the looks on their faces. Shock, surprise, fear..yes there was fear. Only one in my group ever caught on and eventually put his glasses aside. Perhaps in time others will see.
The truth is such a beautiful thing, elusive and sometimes painful to face but once embraced it brings the freedom of which SixofNine spoke.
Serena, I know how you feel. We put our lives and our hearts in their hands and they did not treat us gently. You're quite right.
Bang, that was an interesting interpretation of the parable of the judge and the widow. I've never heard it before. Is it your own or did you read that somewhere else?
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
-
ashitaka
Man, an awesome post. Good reading, and I at least hope Scummy reads it.
ashi
-
Judith
Oh how I wish it were true. It makes me sad and then angry to think that I spent 28 years thinking they had all the answers. I talked with a DAed person yesterday and she said, "I know that if there is one true religion, that it is the Witnesses." I thought this way all the years that I did not attend the meetings. I started back this summer and attended for 4 months trying to be reinstated for I thought "This must be the true religion."
I watched the people at the Hall, I listened to the boring talks, I heard the same monotonous voices giving answers to the Watchtower study. I wanted so much for it to be the Truth but each meeting made it more obvious that it wasn't.
I found this site and looked into the teachings and the changes of the WTS. The UN letter, the blood issue, etc. It hit me pretty hard that it was all a Big Lie and I had been taken in and believed for so long and now it was just smoke and mirrors. It leaves me without a belief system, the belief system of the past 28 years. I am trying to put it all together, pick up all the shattered pieces, dump them into the trash and start all over from square one.
I have had two months to ponder my "unbelief" I haven't been able to find a starting point in believing something else. I don't even know how to pray anymore and if I should even be doing that. Is there any deity out there. How could I ever trust any religion again "Smoke and Mirrors" They all have smoke and mirrors. So, god or no god, god as I see him/her, is an invention of clever men to provide comfort and answers to people while they pick their pockets and ruin their lives. I guess that is a simplified explanation of what I think now. I look at the world, as a side effect of this seemingly harmless belief, millions upon millions of people have died clutching their cross, their Watchtower, their Koran or whatever symbol that expresses their superstition. How can this be a good thing? Even today the Irish are killing the Irish and, of course, Islam would sink all of the West and if they suceed, they will then go after Buddah. It seems to me that religion is only to gather the stupid masses to your cause, how sad.
"Religion is the opium of the people." Karl Marx
-
Frenchy
Thanks, Ash
Judith:
I’ve come down a very similar road as you have. I’ve never been da’d or df’d (yet) but I was inactive for a while when I first got married. Now, of course, I’m very inactive. I’ve heard comments similar to the one you cited from the da’d person about knowing that ‘this is the truth’. (Strange that it should come from people who are really not active in what they purport to believe.) Like I said, I’ve heard it many times from those that I was trying so hard to re-activate. Smoke and mirrors (I like your expression) are very powerful tools in the game of deception. The WTBS is very proficient in their use of these tools in their programming techniques. So strong is the programming (indoctrination, brainwashing) that even after some leave (or are pushed out) they still believe that it was the truth. Is there some sort of lesson there?I think that the brainwashing only goes down so far. I am convinced that, by far and large, most humans don’t think any deeper than is necessary to reach a decision. Once that decision is reached they seldom go down any further. (‘Troubled’ quoted a psychology book on another thread that pretty much says the same thing.) Just how far down they have to go before their mind says ‘enough, already, I’m convinced!’ varies from person to person but the point is once that’s reached, that’s pretty much as far as anything else goes.
All of us who became baptized witnesses became brainwashed (indoctrinated) by the system the WTBS has in place. HOWEVER, those of us (particularly those on this and similar boards) who do occassionally go deeper than what is absolutely necessary (comfortable, maybe?) to reach a plausible decsion got below the psuedo-reasoning and, looking at the arguments from beneath came to the realization that we had been hoodwinked. For many of us fear was the first thing we felt. Anger came later as the veneer (façade) slowly eroded in the bright light of truth.
I would ask of you, Judith, that you consider a ‘truth’ (to me, at least) that was hard earned. The existence of God (and whatever relationship he has with humans) has nothing to do with religion. Religion is the greatest impediment in man’s quest to establish a relationship with God, in my opinion. It is the great idol which God so vehemently detests for it takes for itself what it is that belongs to God, namely ,loyalty devotion, adoration, obedience, and faith.
All religions, in time, place themselves between their flock and God and presume to take the role that only Jesus has been authorized to fill. They then begin to interpret God’s Word and by so doing take the role of the Holy Spirit (remember sin against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin! Intersting, isn’t it?). Then they begin to demand of the flock a reverential respect (no criticsim, special titles and offices, etc.) and in so doing take God’s place. What is He left with?
When you go looking for the Devil, look no further than the nearest church, any church. If he’s not there already, just wait a short while, he’ll be along directly.
I wish you well on your road to finding God. You’ll not find him in philosophy or doctrine or rules or buildings or magazines or in intellectualism nor will you find him in the Bible. You will find there brief and imcomplete reflections of his presence perhaps, shadowy representations and crude imitations of him. There is only one place that God can inteface with his human creation…your heart.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
-
Judith
Hi Frenchy.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on my post. I guess we all feel that "fear and anger" when we finally realize that we had bought into a brain numbing doctrine. I am searching, although I have told myself there is nothing to search for. And what if I found something I thought was IT once more? Chills me to the bone. Perhaps I will find God in my heart as you said. The road is long and I don't know if I even want to travel it and find another disappointment. It's going to take some time to pick the sores of the WTS from my skin, drain the pus of illusion from my brain, and stop going back and forth wondering if I did the right thing.
Your input is important. Thanks again.
-
Frenchy
Hello, Judith.
You're welcome and I thank you for your input. I know how you feel about the 'IT'. I don't know that there is an 'IT' if that means finding a place (or someone) that has all the answers. As a matter of fact, I seriously doubt that. I've come to suspect that this whole human experience of ours is not so much a test as a conditioning perhaps and that this must take place in our present state of ignorance. I know that doesn't sound reassuring. I've never encountered anyone (yet) that can satisfactorily answer any of the difficult questions. I guess what I'm saying is that I have learned to question (admit that I don't know) without losing faith and hope. With hope the road may still come to a dead end. Without hope it most certainly does. The future is a very fearsome thing without hope.Thank you for sharing.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
-
Judith
Hello Frenchy.
"Without losing faith and hope." Ah, that is exactly what has happened to me. I didn't want it to be gone but I could not deny any longer that I was being lied to all those years.
I do want to hope and have a belief system. I know it is scarey without that most of the time. But maybe one adjusts and it becomes less scarey to not guess what might be and live what is.
I had become so used to praying about everything and hoping that I was being heard. It brought comfort in some ways and in others I always wondered if I was asking too much, or not asking properly. That is what the religion does to your brain. I was told to pray and yet only for what is right. Fine line there since we were not supposed to know what was right - only the WT knew. And that could always change like a blowing in the wind.
I sometimes envy that person or persons who have that total submission and belief in their religion. They don't know any better and have not had to sacrifice their peace of mind. It just is the way it is and that's okay. Gees! My mother told me I would keep getting in trouble if I kept asking questions and not doing what I was told to do. Seems she was right. <love her anyway>
-
Frenchy
Hello, Judith.
I understand that you have lost faith in the Society. Most of us here have, including myself. In the process of losing faith in the Society, we lose faith in God as well. Why? Because our very concept of God was one fabricated for us by the Society. We were convinced that apart from the WTBS there is no approach to God and furthermore God has nothing to do with anyone not associated with them. When they went, so did our concept of God. That doesn’t mean that He doesn’t exist, only that He wasn’t where we thought He was.
I don’t think it’s that important to have a ‘belief system’ if that means a set of rigid, formalistic rules (I’m not for having no rules, mind you.) and a set of doctrines chiseled in stone. One does not have to deny God to live this life, a fact that many seem to overlook. Jesus said that he came ‘eating and drinking’ and although he was criticized for it, he certainly did not think it was wrong to have some enjoyment in life. Why can’t one live ‘what is’ and still wonder about ‘might be’?
Judith, I think the problem is that we are looking for a guarantee. Religion gives such a guarantee (never mind that they never deliver) in such a way that they can’t be called into account for not delivering. After all, who has ever come back after death to call them a liar? There is no guarantee. A lesson, if not THE lesson, of this whole business of mortal life in this world. How do we behave without that guarantee? Some curse God (interestingly it’s done by people who claim not to believe in His existence), some try to ignore Him, many turn to a religion as a substitute for the effort required to search Him out, while others (not many) search for Him and consequently for the meaning of their lives while they live the life given to them. Life is to be lived. God would not require anything else but that his gift be used.
Prayer is a wonderful thing. I don’t believe that there is a strict procedure or posture or syntax for offering up prayers. I think Jesus made that clear. Your reference to being concerned about not asking anything improper brought a smile to my lips because I remember adding this comment to my prayers: “If I’m asking for something that I shouldn’t please forgive me.” In time I came to understand that God would do that without my asking. In time I came to realize that God grants very few wishes…and it took a very long time for me to understand that this was a very good thing. This life is not by OUR design. We run a course that has already been set. (I’m not talking about pre-destination here.)
I also know what you mean about envying those that have ‘blind faith’. For some of us, that’s the answer, it would seem. For others of us we have a far more difficult time of it. However, please consider this. There are people in this world that never see anything ugly or vile or sad. I’m talking about the literally blind. But they never see the beauty and wonder that the sighted see either. To see is to see all. It would be a shame, I think, for a person to be given the gift of sight and then wish for blindness.
You’ll do fine, I’m sure. I know you’re hurting and I’m truly sorry for that. It would appear that this is necessary for all of us because we are all hurting one way or another. Even those who choose to curse God at the tops of their voices, if you listen closely you can hear the sound of pain in that too. One day this will pass and we shall all know what our lesson was about. Hang on, sister.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
-
Bang
Frenchy,
You aked: << Is it your own or did you read that somewhere else? >>That's from someone else - they delighted in poverty and working with the poor, about a thousand years ago. I knew that you wouldn't have heard such things at kingdom hall, I haven't been there, but you just know, you know.
I'm not sure what else to say - He's meek and not haughty, and far more than the WT society would have you believe. Don't be sad anymore.
Bang