Sorry, JourneyOn and Snowbird, but comments like: "I believe angels are watching over us, and the more our thoughts are tuned in to the divine, the more results we obtain" are the very nonsense I was writing about. That sort of thinking, even when I was a JW, I found completely ridiculous. Yeah, while the angels were making sure Sister Pioneer found winter boots exactly in her size for $5 at a yard sale, a few thousand little kids were getting their hands chopped off in some African hellhole because they were from the wrong tribe.
No, angels are not watching over anyone. Or if they are, they are doing a really, really shitty job for most people!
I do believe that, if one is aware of how life and the universe works, and you live in harmony with that knowledge, you are likely to have a much happier life, even a "blessed" existence. For example, the speeding and accidents illustration used above, or the fact that, if you aren't hanging around with criminals and avoid illegal drugs, your chances of being murdered drop by something like 1000% percent!
AWAKENED07 - Your repost is what I'm talking about. Your illustration about the phone and thinking about someone and then the phone rings and it's that person is perfect. We think that is something special, forgetting the thousands of times we looked at a phone while thinking about someone and NOTHING happened.
And the point was well made that people with that supernatural or religious bent can cover every base. If they want something and it happens, it's God's blessing, and if it doesn't happen, it's God saying no! How convenient is that!! It's foolishness, that's what it is.
I'm sorry, Snowbird, but that sort of supernatural thinking has been a curse on humanity for millennia. The more quickly humankind can shed that childish view of life and take full responsibility for our actions the better.
S4
Premonitions and Prayer - Explained!
by Seeker4 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Seeker4
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Sirona
Good point.
I agree that some people look at everything as though its of divine origin.
However, despite the fact that we can't point to these things as proof of God's existence, I do believe strongly in certain extra sensory perception. Scientific experiments have shown significant results (beyond chance) which indicate that human beings may be able to sense something prior to it happening, or perceive something from a distance without using the ordinary senses.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Sirona
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snowbird
Sorry, JourneyOn and Snowbird, but comments like: "I believe angels are watching over us, and the more our thoughts are tuned in to the divine, the more results we obtain" are the very nonsense I was writing about. That sort of thinking, even when I was a JW, I found completely ridiculous. Yeah, while the angels were making sure Sister Pioneer found winter boots exactly in her size for $5 at a yard sale, a few thousand little kids were getting their hands chopped off in some African hellhole because they were from the wrong tribe.
I didn't have material benefits in mind when I wrote that. Those examples the WT used to give as proof of Jehovah's blessing used to disturb me also. I was thinking more of having peace of mind with the certainty that God is going to right all wrongs. That was - and continues to be - my prayer.
I'm sorry, Snowbird, but that sort of supernatural thinking has been a curse on humanity for millennia. The more quickly humankind can shed that childish view of life and take full responsibility for our actions the better.
S4To the contrary, the curse came from our being too puffed up with pride to seek for and obey our Creator. I take full responsibility for all my actions, including the choice of acknowledging the fact that neither I nor any other humans have answers. I see nothing childish in that; it takes a real woman or man to admit that we're badly in need of salvation - even from ourselves!
Sylvia
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journey-on
Seeker, you are very pragmatic and rational. So, rather than saying God and Angels, what if you looked at it like any other energy that is invisible to the naked eye. God is the Universal Source, a subtle non-corporeal undetectable (as yet) energy through all, within all, and around all. And angels are like a stepped down or transduced portion of this energy, transformed into a lesser put still powerful energy force. We interact with these forces daily although most are not aware of it. These forces are not here to grant our every wish. We are a conduit by which this Eternal One experiences existence outside itself and a tool by which matter, which is simply condensed energy (another step-down) can be experienced. The only difference is that some people are able to "know" this consciously, while others don't recognize it.
You don't have to look at things through religious eyes. I don't.
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Caljuher
With all respect to Seeker and those who hold his views, it does the same harm as the JWs do to others to tell theists that their beliefs are ridiculous or that they are foolish to believe in such things.
While I don't believe I can convince others the need for doing so, I believe what is needed on this board is respect for people and that we need to let go of our judgmental views of others--even if it is in angels and prayers. It takes courage to let go of hate and anger and hurt and promote healing, but we need to do this if we are to not only move on ourselves but to aid others to do the same. And this may mean giving people the dignity to believe as they do once leaving the Watchtower.
While I respect what Seeker is saying and where he is coming from, Seeker, you cannot prove angels don't exist or aren't watching over people or prayers don't work anymore than those who believe in them can. What you can prove to people who may misunderstand you is that you really have other people's best interests at heart. But this won't ever come across if we keep being so judgmental of other's beliefs. Didn't we leave that behind in those Kindgom Halls we once attended? Or are we still like those we left behind?
Unfortunately I believe people will hate what I've just written, and I am likely to have the equivalent of garbage thrown at me for what I just wrote, but so be it. I still think that deep down we really want to help one another, despite how it sometimes comes across.
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Seeker4
Those last three posts key on what I, and a lot of other freethinkers and rationalists, see as a huge weakness in the belief in the supernatural - while there is absolutely NO evidence for the supernatural, it helps me to feel better if I do, so therefore, I choose to believe in something which gives no evidence that it even exists.
Humans have created non-existent, invisible, myth-worlds in order to make themselves feel better, comforted and watched-over. Much of this comes out of our historic fear of death which developed as we became intelligent enough to be aware of our selves, time and surroundings.
It's an irrational choice, bolstered by reference to "holy" books - the Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, the Jewish Law – created by ancient priesthoods trying to find a way to keep themselves in power and the common person under control and in fear.
Journey on wrote: "So, rather than saying God and Angels, what if you looked at it like any other energy that is invisible to the naked eye. God is the Universal Source, a subtle non-corporeal undetectable (as yet) energy through all, within all, and around all. And angels are like a stepped down or transduced portion of this energy, transformed into a lesser put still powerful energy force. We interact with these forces daily although most are not aware of it."
Wrapping the supernatural in New Age terminology doesn't make any more sense to me than believing in mythical gods. Sure, physics teaches me that all matter is essentially converted energy. It doesn't mean that that energy is conscious, aware of me or caring for me in either a positive or negative way. That energy just is, and I see no reason to assume it has qualities of malevolence or benevolence. Like a tree, I can use the matter in a tree to build my house, or the tree can fall on me and that matter will kill me if I'm not careful. The tree isn't concerned about what happens to it one way or another. It's not conscious in any way that matters to us.
Caljuher wrote: "While I respect what Seeker is saying and where he is coming from, Seeker, you cannot prove angels don't exist or aren't watching over people or prayers don't work anymore than those who believe in them can."
That's another example of the sad reasoning required to believe in the supernatural. It was handled long ago by the argument that I cannot disprove that there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster circling Jupiter - but considering the total lack of evidence, WHY would I WANT to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?? We could sit together throughout eternity creating a list of things we CAN'T disprove, but it would be a totally meaningless exercise. Believing in something simply because you can't prove it doesn't exist is very, very poor use of your critical thinking skills.
But it was Snowbird's comment that really hit it for me. She wrote: "To the contrary, the curse came from our being too puffed up with pride to seek for and obey our Creator. I take full responsibility for all my actions, including the choice of acknowledging the fact that neither I nor any other humans have answers. I see nothing childish in that; it takes a real woman or man to admit that we're badly in need of salvation - even from ourselves!"
That's the saddest thing that religious belief in the supernatural has done to humankind - telling us we're "puffed up with pride," that we need to seek and obey a creator (for whom there is no evidence of existence), that humans have "no answers" and that we need this thing called "salvation" - even salvation from ourselves. It's just the rote rattling off of words taught by various religions worldwide. What utter nonsense!! What a terrible thing to teach people - that we're inherently bad and lacking ability and need to be saved from ourselves. That we should grovel at the feet of some mythic deity whose own holy books describe him as a psychopathic hater, torturer and killer.
And what is the "salvation" the holy books tell us we need?? To live with the psychopath and constantly tell him how wonderful he is. That sounds like a nice way to spend eternity!!
Humans are glorious, and should be proud of what we can do. And what does it mean to say that humans have no answers? What are the questions? It's quite easy to come up with an answer as to what we should do with our lives, why we're here and what happens when we die - it's just that those rational answers don't "feel" as good as thinking that there is a mythic big daddy in the sky who is going to solve all our problems for us because we're bad and helpless children that daddy needs to "save."
Sirona, I do understand that there are some things that we are not close to understanding. But so far, experiments about ESP and especially the ability to see into the "future" have been a long, long way from convincing or supportive.
Thanks to all for enlivening this debate!
S4 -
snowbird
Yeah, while the angels were making sure Sister Pioneer found winter boots exactly in her size for $5 at a yard sale, a few thousand little kids were getting their hands chopped off in some African hellhole because they were from the wrong tribe.
Do you have the answer to the highlighted portion, Seeker4?
What about the evil that is inherent in all of us?
These are not questions I've read in a book, but are queries that I've spent hours contemplating.
You mentioned how glorious we humans are; I would say we have the potential to become glorious creatures. Isn't it paradoxical that for all our "greatness," we have only succeeded to the point of nearly destroying ourselves?
What is it that prevents us from attaining our goals?
The Bible is the only book I've come across that even attempts to answer those questions.
That's why I read it, believe it, and quote it.
Sylvia
Sylvia
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lonelysheep
Humans have created non-existent, invisible, myth-worlds in order to make themselves feel better, comforted and watched-over. Much of this comes out of our historic fear of death which developed as we became intelligent enough to be aware of our selves, time and surroundings.
Great point.
Think outside the box!
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snowbird
I don't think it's so much the fear of death, but the certainty and pointlessness of death that cause so much anxiety.
The African-American poet, Langston Hughes, expressed it so well in this poem:
Sylvia
Wake Tell all my mourners
To mourn in red --
Cause there ain't no sense
In my bein' dead.
Langston Hughes -
journey-on
Okay, Seeker....you accused me of wrapping the supernatural in New Age terminology. That is not what I have done. I merely
say that just as Science sometimes knows things exist even though they can't prove it or see it (such as Black Holes, neutrinos
at one time, anti-matter, dark matter, even gravity at one time, etc. etc. ), but base it on the effects these things seem to have on
other things, we can't be so adamant that the "supernatural" as you put it (I would choose another word) does not exist and does not affect our world.
Our science is SO very small in the grand scheme of things, that to close our minds to the possiblility that dimensions exist that we
as yet cannot see and prove exist, is just plain STUPID, imo. You can still be rational and logical and live your life on your own terms, and still believe that there is an
Intelligent Universal Consciousness at play in the universe directing our evolution both physically and spiritually. Many people still
march along to the tune of religion's view of the universe (Flying Spaghetti Monster?) , and some of those who have left religion scoff at these people. But don't throw the
baby out with the bathwater. Maybe it's just time for new terminology and a new paradigm.