Premonitions and Prayer - Explained!

by Seeker4 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Meeting Junkie No More
    Meeting Junkie No More

    Seeker4 - You wrote "...What I have frequently seen is that the mind is hugely capable of deluding itself"

    My question to you is how did you 'see' this? With your own mind?

    I think in the end we may all have to agree to disagree on this particular matter without resorting to calling our friends on the other side of the issue 'misguided' or 'deluded', because all of our opinions and beliefs are a very function of our 'brains', which may themselves be 'deluded'.

    Not to hijack the thread, but anyone out there seen "What the bleep do we know? or Down the Rabbit Hole?"

  • Sirona
    Sirona
    But with regard to your other points about evidence for some forms of ESP, as it says on Wikipedia: "Popular belief in ESP is widespread, but skeptics are still not persuaded that there truly is a sixth sense because of the lack of reliable theories and information. The existence of ESP abilities is highly controversial, and no scientifically conclusive demonstrations of the existence of ESP have been given."
    Sorry, that indicates there are no studies with "scientifically significant results" supporting ESP, as you stated. Given time, maybe there will be.

    Wikipedia. Well, all I can say is thank goodness science doesn't rely on Wikipedia to set standards.

    Here are a couple of studies which have been conducted and their results. I have summarised - I do have much more information relating to the exact procedure of each experiment.

    A recent study conduced by Dean Radin et al at the University of Nevada, conducted a test on physiological responses to photographs. Photographs were categorised as "calm" or "emotional". The results showed that participants' electrodermal activity rose before a picture appeared on screen (in anticipation of the picture). What was significant was that despite pictures being shown totally randomly, participants' electrodermal activity rose more when the picture was going to be an "emotional" picture - before the picture even appeared on screen.

    Measuring electrodermal activity, heart rate and finger blood volume for participants showed a significantly greater response in participants when the picture was going to be an emotional one. This indicated an ability of the participant to "know", at least physiologically, whether the picture which was about to appear was going to be one which is classed as "emotional". This is precognition (or a form of knowing the future). This experiment has since been replicated with similar results.

    Another experiment tested whether information could be "sent" by one participant to another participant. These were conducted by Honorton et al starting in 1983. Due to critisisms of experimental method, this test has been refined over and over again to eliminate any problems in testing. Basically the "sender" would be in a sound proofed, steel walled, electromagnetically sheilded room. He would view a random (computer randomised) image. He would attempt to "send" this image to a person who was in a totally different room, often miles away from the sender's location. The receiver would then verbally give impressions they were "receiving" and later would view four images - and would pick one image which they thought the sender was trying to send.

    There would obviously be a certain number of participants who would pick the right image just by chance. The scientists gave a statistical figure which represented what would be expected just by chance. The results of this experiment were that there was a significant effect beyond chance with odds of around 50000 to 1. Other similar experiments have been conducted so that this experiment is well replicated, adding all results together produces odds against chance of a million billion to one.

    This appears to suggest that in scientific experiments human beings are able to transmit information to other human beings outside of our normal senses.

    Sirona

    You wrote, "...everyone demands countless replication and pathetically stringent controls" - yes, those damn scientists! How dare they! Considering the huge number of charlatans out there claiming to have supernatural powers, it seems a good thing actually to make people prove what they claim.

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Just to address another point you made:

    You wrote, "...everyone demands countless replication and pathetically stringent controls" - yes, those damn scientists! How dare they! Considering the huge number of charlatans out there claiming to have supernatural powers, it seems a good thing actually to make people prove what they claim

    .
    In what I wrote, the operative word was "countless" when referring to replication.

    My original point showed that some things which are accepted as scientific fact are accepted as fact despite surprisingly few replications! We are so happy to accept fact XYZ because three studies have shown XYZ to be so called proven.....but we won't accept fact ABC on the strength of 10 experiments because ABC doesn't sit well with our world view!

    That was my point. Of course replicate replicate replicate! Just don't say the results are not there just because it rocks your atheist boat.

    Sirona

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Well?

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    So Seeker4 can assert that there is no scientific evidence, then when I provide some, he doesn't want to reply to this thread all of a sudden?

    Or anyone else for that matter?

    Sirona

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    Sirona you make some good points - I haven't read everything on this thread. Personally I like to keep an open mind because it seems to me that the scientifc tools that we use to measure and quantify stuff are somewhat lacking in the department of metaphysics etc. So science can sometimes be guilty of the circular reasoning they comdemn in religionists.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    okay now I've read the whole thread properly

    In answer to seekers4 re premonitions and prayer - I'm glad you put an exclamation mark after explained in your title - lol - because I'm taking that as an acknowledgement that you are exaggerating the absurdness of prayer and premonition.

    The fact is that we can represent stuff as supernatural or scientific but that does not change what is going on. Those who have premonitions for example may well be tapping into something that will one day have scientific terms to label it.

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Sorry, Sirona, I've been working on an article all weekend, didn't look at this thread until tonight, and I have no time to really give your posts the attention they deserve. I'll try to take a closer look tomorrow. I also got your PM. I didn't mean to ignore you, but some of my weekends are super busy, and this was one.

    I did see the film "What the $%^& Do We Know," and watched it with great interest. There is one person on there that was interviewed, the woman channeling some ancient warrior or whatever, that I remain completely skeptical about. She used to publish her stuff from a place just a few miles from where I live. Her being in that film really set me back. There were some interesting ideas there, but I remain very skeptical of some of it.

    I agree that people have a right to their own ideas, but I am NOT of the school that thinks that all ideas should be given the same attention and respect and gravity. There are a lot of ideas out there, but they are not all good ideas! Some ideas are just plain bad or stupid. Sorry if that offends some, and I know it's not politically correct, but I have no desire to waste any of my time on bad thinking.

    If you're an experienced builder or surgeon, and someone comes along spouting a building technique or surgery technique that is contrary to your experience, they better present convincing evidence that what they are saying is so or you're going to figure it's bullshit. I've got 35 years experience in the areas of prayer and prophecy, so I'm not too patient with anyone who spouts a special connection with some invisible part of the universe that 99% of the rest of us don't have. Prove it or get in line with the rest of the charlatans, self-deluded or not.

    One of my favorite writers, Colin Wilson, had a real interest in all of these areas as well. Interestingly, he was a math prodigy and genius who had a passing connection with the JWs in his youth, and you can find some of that detailed in his books. He investigated the paranormal, and found the vast majority of it was bogus. BUT, there was one case that seemed to him to be quite genuine. It's been a while and I don't remember all the details, but he wrote about that case extensively.

    I wasn't exaggerating my feeling that premonitions and prayer are absurd, Quietly Leaving. I've seen no evidence beyond the coincidental that they have any value at all. BUT, contrary to many of the comments on here, I'm not closed minded to it - I just need to see a lot more evidence than I have. Hell, I'd be glad to start believing in Jehovah again if he'd just get off his lazy ass and perform a miracle or two for us!

    That idea that some people may be tapping into something that science may eventually explain also interests me, and may provide some explanations for what seems the exceptions to what we all experience.

    Back to work! Deadlines loom!

    S4

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Hi Seeker,

    Thanks for the reply

    I'm a "believer" in the sense that I have personally experienced things which have been outside the realms of "normal" (whatever normal is!).

    However, I am in agreement with you 100% that we cannot believe everything we hear. I honestly think that the majority of stories and anecdotes can be explained by reasonable explanation. I've had people tell me of their "ghostly" experiences and whilst I don't doubt their belief, I often find myself thinking of entirely rational explanations for their experience (like faulty electrics, noisy pipes, altered state of awareness, group delusion, etc.)

    The thing is, whilst we can point to all the nut cases out there who make wierd voices and channel lord zoid of the delta quadrant, we can't say that everything is created in the mind of the individual in every case.

    This leads us to some experiments which have been conducted. There are far more than the two I quoted. It appears that sometimes unexplained phenomena occur. Sometimes there are premonitions (I choose this because of the title of your thread). If the human body "knows" seconds before something appears that its going to appear - this in some way proves a type of precognition doesn't it?

    As a pagan who believes in the power of the human mind and in the existence of some type of divinity, I hate it when someone tars everyone with the same brush. Not all believers are illogical loonies!

    Sirona

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Sirona,

    Been a long day, and I did take a quick look at your post, but not enough to comment on it. I'll take a deeper look later. I worked til 11 last night, then up at 5:30 this morning to put my paper together today.

    It's veg time tonight! Light supper, vodka and soda and TV.

    One of the more profound influences on me as I was leaving the JWs was Ken Wilber, who has a far stronger mystical bent than I do. You might enjoy some of his stuff.

    Check out Colin Wilson, a fellow Englishman. You can find a ton of stuff on line about him, and about Wilber. Wilson wrote a very influential book when he was very young called The Outsider. Great book.

    S4

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