The Design of Life

by Deputy Dog 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • 5go
    5go
    We can't say, everything just started with the big bang, if everything in nature has a cause.

    Well that why we investigate and put forth theories versus just saying god did it.

    For instance there is now a debate as to whether time is constant do to a problem with Einstein's theory. The problem being if gravity and all the other forces of the universe are constant. Then why is time and space not constant? A new theory is that the big bang happened in side of a constant universe. Which might help explain the multi verse theory. Of course there is also a competing theory that the other forces are not constant. They just haven't been observed yet out side of their constancy. Time will tell which is correct but they are both better than just saying god did it.

  • Gregor
    Gregor

    Maybe BlackBoo could give us an unbiased opinion so this can be settled.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    It has always been two camps. One for and one against. Scholars on both sides, take your pick. Read, study and learn. In the end, we all die. What comes next is one of two things, one ) nothing, two ) something.

    Faith, and personal experiences not withstanding.

    Blueblades

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    Blueblades:

    In the end, we all die. What comes next is one of two things, one ) nothing, two ) something.

    That is not at all what this discussion is about. It is about whether life shows evidence of intelligent design. Even if it was demonstrated that the human brain could only be the result of deliberate conscious creation, it is still obvious that it stops working on death and therefore if there's an afterlife it must be something else that survives, so the structure of the brain (or indeed any part of any life form), even if it proves the existence of a god, tells us nothing about an afterlife.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07
    "During the first eighteen months from conception, the brain’s neurons are formed, deployed, and connected in a tsunami of activity, at the rate of 250,000 per minute , until 100 billion neurons are arrayed in a powerful, organized matrix. Each neuron may have tens of thousands of finger-like appendages, or dendrites, which connect with other neurons and dendrites in a bafflingly complex circuitry. No two neurons are exactly the same, with the result that the circuitry of each brain is unique. That circuitry is more complex than all the telephone circuitry on the face of the earth. Three decades ago science-writer Isaac Asimov was so impressed with the densely organized complexity of the human brain that he wrote: “In Man is a three-pound brain, which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe.”

    Complex, no doubt. However, as this seems to be an argument for intelligent design (by a God), I have to ask; do creationists believe that every single fetus is individually created? That God directly creates each and every one of these neurones? If not, and this process is automated from one cell to billions, I don't see how creationism can have 'an upper hand' on evolution theory on this point. Because what it then boils down to, is not this immense complexity (number of complex cells emerging), but the 'recipe' for that complexity, in DNA. Slow, gradual, cumulative evolution can explain that, and *poof* creation by God can 'explain' (or at least describe) it. The emerging of DNA is not within the scope of evolution theory, granted, but seeing how everything shows signs of having evolved over time, it stands to reason that it goes all the way down, when you 'rewind the tape'.

    There's really no difference between pointing to the brain and pointing to other complex organs like the eye. No one is arguing that they are not complex. It's a 'nice' way to create an argument from incredulity in people though.

    As for time, that's been theorized and philosophized on for... all time , but my personal opinion is that no entity can be outside of time, because the entity would then itself 'generate' time. A God before the universe would probably move and think (right?), and each movement and/or thought could be separated, and a time frame could be put up between them. It wouldn't be 'earth years', but one could still count a 'time period' between one thought or act, and the next. Therefore, God would still be 'trapped' in some kind of time, if He at the same time is said to have existed eternally (in His own, self generated time frame). You don't have to agree with me obviously; just my thoughts on it.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Awakened: I always love your comments.

    A God before the universe would probably move and think (right?), and each movement and/or thought could be separated, and a time frame could be put up between them.

    From my perspective (which technically is off point...) that's just it: "God" (if you will) is really that alien, really does not "move" (it is inclusive of all matter and all space) and does not "think" (it has no distinct brain). It is not separate, in that it does not exist in time/space as a distinct entity. From "God's" perspective, there is no time frame other than the all-inclusive, and everything "happens" in the present (e.g., at the same time).

    It's a context that we are not very familier with and I doubt we could exist as humans within it.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07
    "God" (if you will) is really that alien, really does not "move" (it is inclusive of all matter and all space) and does not "think" (it has no distinct brain). It is not separate, in that it does not exist in time/space as a distinct entity. From "God's" perspective, there is no time frame other than the all-inclusive, and everything "happens" in the present (e.g., at the same time).

    Well - in that case, your God is so close to non-existence that even I could probably believe in It.

  • Spook
    Spook

    Interesting thread, though it has ranged broadly from the starting point of consciousness. I have a couple things to chime in on: First, consciousness. Second, "ID."

    I will credit a couple of things.

    A. All brains are highly complex networks.

    B. The human brain and consciousness appears to many to be the most complex, though this is not a brute fact.

    C. Consciousness studies are a modern scientific pursuit and much is unknown.

    However I stand strongly by both the weak and strong following positions:

    1. There is no good reason to believe that anything we know and/or all we don't know about consciousness implies anything metaphysical.

    2. There are many good reasons to believe in a functional, material, conscious brain arising naturally.

    I would refer the readers to some modern books on the subject. A fine philosophical article is available in the "new" section on infidels.org, complete with rebuttal and rejoinder from the theistic side. Also, books by Daniel Dennet & such are helpful for the science involved. You can trace this discussion back a long way, all the way to Alfred Russel Wallace, Darwin's codiscoverer of many aspects of the original evolutionary theories. Wallace found it hard to conceive of the higher human brain as evolving. Dr. Michael Shermer who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Wallace has many lectures available relating to this subject as well. Anyone invovled in ID may do well to research Huxley/Wilberforce, Paley, etc. I was just reading an article by Gould last night referring to an 1820's classic on the anatomy of the hand and the argument for design.

    Leaving off 1 and 2 above for the moment (if anyone wants to delve into these, I'm more than happy to oblige having just finished a three part debate vs deism and the problem of consciousness, me taking the natural materialist position) I'll point out a couple of classic errors in the teleological argument, now disguised as ID.

    The teleological argument as expressed by ID etc, has several traditional logical fallacies:

    1. The error of false/weak annology resulting in circular reasoning and "begging the question". The phrase "Design iplies a designer" is highly misleading. The question at stake is the existance of a designer, not the presence of design in an instance. You could say "To the extent that an object X has properties belonging only to the set of designed objects, one can infer that X is, to that extent, designed."

    1a. Reification of abstract concepts such as design and complexity. Design as an abstract concept is equally relevant to evolution. The common word design implies the word designer. But the entailment of a biological network or anything complex only implies a process by which that entailment came to be. Most modern people accept that many complex states come into existance by natural means. So the question then, linguistic foolishness aside, is "Which explanation for biological complexity has the most truth-value."

    2. Explaining something little explained (complexity) with something less explained (the supernatural or unknown agency.). This is the traditional reverse. Even if it were given as a brute fact that a God or gods existed, the logical inference from "apparent complexity" would not follow to the identity of a designer.

    3. Infinite regress to higher complexity. A poster already mentioned this in the sense of "who designed the designer?" rebuttal.

    I could go on to irreducible complexity, but will wait to see where the discussion goes.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    The universe had a cause, namely itself. It caused itself. In a state of total tranquility, it was a wave of turbulence that occured randomly. Tranquility offered no resistence, and so the wave was allowed to propagate. Perhaps it will reach a zenith, at some point, and collapse. Or, perhaps it will continue to expand into an etherial vapor.

    S

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    derek

    It's not a rule, it's a statement of fact; evolution requires time the same as aging requires time.

    Wouldn't you call it natural law?

    s_w

    The universe is expanding. It will then shrink to nothing, and emerge in another space/time dimension as that universe's big bang. All of this universe's matter will be transferred to that one.

    I believe science has ruled this one out. Most say the universe will continue to expand until everything disintegrates. It's expanding faster and faster.

    Maybe saying before the big bang is like saying north of the north pole. You can't get beyond that point, yet the north pole still exists.

    Would the north star be north of the north pole?

    My own feeling is that there was a natural cause for our universe, because we've not found a supernatural cause for anything in nature so far. Universes that make their own universes somehow. This would mean an eternity of universes, with no beginning. If a designer can be eternal, I can't see why universes couldn't.

    This sort of fits "string theory"and requires an infinite number of universes or what they call a multi-verse in which not only is everything possible, but likely. From what I read, this is the popular view today in quantum physics. If you can wrap you mind around that, believing in God seems quite sane to me.

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