sir82:
Some junior writer forgot what the "present truth" was, and the editor wasn't paying attention.
Perhaps a little too much "SPIRIT" was at work. The liquid kind.
OM
What prompted the whopper of all Flip Flops? (Sodom & G. resurrection)
by Open mind 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
Open mind
-
Open mind
I don't think I fleshed out my question well enough in my initial post.
The whole "Will the residents of Sodom & G. be resurrected?" question is in the same category as "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?", IMO. This isn't in the same league as Organ Transplants & Blood Transfusions.
Suppose the Aid Book said that Moses had underwear that were custom-made Egyptian bun-huggers similar to what is available today?
Then the Insight Book comes along and says, no silly, they were diapers.
Now, at the very most, if you had one lick of common sense, strategy, or Public Relations savvy, MAYBE you would reverse yourself ONE LAST TIME on this highly important issue and then STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM IT FOR GOOD!!!
Wouldn't you?
OM
-
Pioneer Spit...oh, i mean Spirit
neverending said it best: the conductor said that the society 'RECEIVED' new understanding. Well, golly, Beav', from whom. Did they toss the Urim and Thummin again or was it the dew on the lamb's wool?
-
lrkr
Probably depends on whether they were in favor of sodomy or not.
(Sorry- just another smart ass answer- I don't know.)
-
kifoy
For the fun of it, I just had to find the sources of this remarkable list.
Here's what I found in this short time:
1879 - Will be resurrectedThe Watchtower 1979, p. 7,8:
Surely if we find their restitution mentioned you will be satisfied: But why should they not have an opportunity to obtain eternal life as well as you or the Jew? They were not wicked in the proper sense, for they did not have law or much knowledge. True, they were not righteous, but neither were you when God gave you your opportunity. Christ’s own words shall tell us that they are mot as guilt?/ in His sight as the Jews, who had more knowledge: “Woe unto thee, Capernaum, for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom it would have remained unto this day.” Thus Christ’s own words teach us that thev had not had their full opportunity. “Remember,” Christ says of the Sodomites, that “God-rained down fire and destroyed them all.” So, if theii restoration is spoken of, it implies their resurrection.1955 - Will not be resurrected
The Watchtower 15. November 1955, p. 676:
That some will not gain salvation is made clear in the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. In sentencing Adam God said: “For dust you are and to dust you will return.” That means annihilation, not salvation. Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah we are told that they “are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing” judicial everlasting punishment. At Revelation 21:8 (NW) we read that all the wicked will have their portion “in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” Nothing is said about a redemption or a resurrection from this second death.—Gen. 3:19; Jude 7, NW.1965 - Will be resurrected
The Watchtower 1. March 1965, p. 138:
17 So the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were made a “warning example,” because they were not allowed to continue existing till the day of Jesus Christ and of Peter and Jude and fellow disciples. Not that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were condemned to Gehenna and were hurled into the “lake that burns with fire and sulphur”; but that they were made a warning example to unfaithful Christians (”ungodly persons”) who will be judicially punished with “everlasting fire” or everlasting destruction.1967 - Will not be resurrected
The Watchtower 1. July 1967, p. 409:
How will these, having been caught, be disposed of? Will they be preserved alive? Will they be killed and buried in Hades or Sheol, which is the common grave of dead mankind, from which resurrection is possible? No, these political organizations are slated to be “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” This the Bible describes as the “second death.” (Rev. 20:14) It means the death from which there is no resurrection. They will be burned up root and branch, as completely gone forever as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which Jehovah God burned up by a rain of fire and sulphur from heaven, never to be rebuilt. It is destruction in Gehenna in which God destroys both body and soul (any right or possibility of living).—Matt. 10:28; Gen. 19:23-29; 2 Pet. 2:6-9; Jude 7.1974 - Will be resurrected
The Watchtower 8. October 1974, p. 20:
God’s dealing with Sodom and Gomorrah shows that he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but wants all to live, if they will just live respectfully toward their fellowman and in obedience to righteous principles. (Ezek. 33:11; Mic. 6:8) Moreover, God’s undeserved kindness and care are so great that he will bring back the people of Sodom by a resurrection, with opportunity to learn and turn around to the way of life, even as his Son stated.—Luke 10:11, 12; Matt. 11:24.
The Watchtower 15. August 1982, p. 26:
10 Sodom, Gomorrah and surrounding cities furnished a warning example “by undergoing [Jehovah God’s] judicial punishment of everlasting fire,” eternal destruction. The charred ruins of at least Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim are thought to lie under the waters of the southern portion of the Salt (Dead) Sea or in that region. So neither they nor their inhabitants are still burning. Apparently the cities themselves, rather than all their inhabitants, were everlastingly destroyed, for it seems that at least some individuals once residing there will be resurrected. (Matthew 10:15; 11:24; Revelation 20:12, 13)1988 - Will not be resurrected
The Watchtower 1. June 1988, p. 30:
There is an interesting similarity in phraseology between this description and what Jude said occurred in the case of Sodom. Furthermore, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that “the goats” cut off in the coming war of God will experience “everlasting cutting-off” in “the lake of fire,” which symbolizes permanent annihilation.—Revelation 20:10, 14. Consequently, in addition to what Jude 7 says, the Bible uses Sodom/Gomorrah and the Flood as patterns for the destructive end of the present wicked system. It is apparent, then, that those whom God executed in those past judgments experienced irreversible destruction.1988 - Will be resurrected
Insight, Vol. 1 p. 985 (Gomorrah):
The apostle Peter said that by reducing Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, God condemned them, “setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come.” (2Pe 2:6) This mention by Peter and references by Jesus Christ and Jude prove that Jesus and his disciples acknowledged that these cities of the District had actually existed and that they accepted the Biblical account of them as true. Though the cities underwent “the judicial punishment of everlasting fire” (Jude 7), Jesus indicated that people of Sodom and Gomorrah would experience a resurrection to stand for judgment. He contrasted them with a city that rejected his disciples in their preaching of the Kingdom good news, saying: “It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city.”—Mt 10:7, 14, 15;1989 - Will not be resurrected
Live forever... (1989) Chap. 21, p. 179:
Will such terribly wicked persons be resurrected during Judgment Day? The Scriptures indicate that apparently they will not. For example, one of Jesus’ inspired disciples, Jude, wrote first about the angels that forsook their place in heaven to have relations with the daughters of men. Then he added: “So too Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” (Jude 6, 7; Genesis 6:1, 2) Yes, for their excessive immorality the people of Sodom and of the surrounding cities suffered a destruction from which they will apparently never be resurrected.—2 Peter 2:4-6, 9, 10a.This is of course no big deal compared to the blood question, but I find it interesting that they would bother to flip-flop this much over a no-big-deal-case.
That makes it even more interesting for me -
tijkmo
1989 - Will not be resurrected
all these flip flops and still they have it wrong..at the moment.......
Question: Why are these people not going to be resurrected according to the WTS? Do you remember ever reading where Lot and his family preached/warned these people?
When the tsunami struck a few years we were discussing it after the group study and someone commented on what to say to the idea that it was an act of God...Someone else remembered a talk that had been given showing what constitutes an act of God and said that it would have to be selective so no righteous died and that God wouldnt ever act without first giving a warning and quoted as examples noah & sodom/gomorrah...so i said oh when did sodom & gomorrah get preached to then...shocked look as if to say how dare you question something we've always believed with anything remotely resembling reason and truth..speedy recovery though--ah well j. had already seen that there was no one righteous there..hold on i said..j had also condemned the nearby city of zoar to destruction but when lot kept dragging his feet and then complained that running to the hills was just a bit too much to ask for survival j let him go to zoar thereby sparing that city from destruction...
so...was it not possible for j to insist lot fled to the hills or the angels who dragged him out anyway just to keep dragging him...thereby ensuring that zoar that had already been judged worthy of destruction got destroyed...if not then why condemn it in the first place..response--j obviously destroyed it later..well guess what..he didnt.zoar continued for centuries meaning that all the inhabitants that died natural deaths will get a ressurection.
conclusion....sodom and gomorrah inhabitants must get a ressurection...sure they died at the time for their sinfulness probably because they posed a threat to the human race survival (aids would have arrived much sooner had it not been checked imho) but nineveh proved that condemned people preached to can turn around and sodom & gomorrah were never given that opportunity.
interestingly in a recent wt that discusses the ressurection it makes the point that korah dathan and abiram who were executed by j went into sheol and not gehenna so will get a ressurection from there..tijkmo
-
WHO
Please open your mind to this suggestion. I see a "spirit directed" organization in the WTB&TS, and you equate their 'differing light' as a series of stupidity. You won't deny the WTB&TS is really an organization, will you? I'll bet you're hung-up on the spirited-directed part, am I right? What's to question?
The Watchtower, from early times, has likened itself to a lighthouse-like entity, to the point of making it their masthead magazine's cover illustration for years. The Watchtower's light has differed in its illumination over the decades (putting it as politely as I can word it), just as a lighthouse's light-output differs or flashes to distinguish itself *as* a lighthouse. Ask any sailor: lighthouses are placed on rocky shoals as a warning to prevent a catastrophic shipwreck. They're not something you sail your vessel towards, to the very contrary.
The irony and coincidence going on here is too rich for me to swallow the idea it's mere happenstance or lack of spirit direction. Damn if I don't see spirit-direction at work! Sailor take warning. -
OnTheWayOut
So my question is, could anyone direct me to a thread that gives any kind of "insider" ideas as to what prompted such a series of stupidity? Was there a power struggle between Knorr and someone else?
There was no power struggle of this type listed that I recall.
Some of the reasons for the flip flops was that different people wrote new stuff and were not
able to check the old writings as easy as those who wrote later could do. They didn't have
such a quick reference as the computer and their indexes probably were not as complete.BUT the main reason for flip flops was explained in the threads by Garybuss.
He told us that rewriting the doctrines gave a reason for dubs to buy the new books and
learn the new doctrines. Changing forced the rank and file to "keep up."I can remember as a faithful dub elder, getting a bit upset from the podium when people
didn't know the latest answer. "Didn't you read the release from last year?" "It's in the
Watchtower we studied last week." -
Open mind
WHO I'm not really sure what point(s) you were trying to make, but would you mind trying again? I'm a little slow of thought most days.
Here's just a couple items you lost me on:
You won't deny the WTB&TS is really an organization, will you?
What rock did you drag this strawman out from under?
I can't recall anyone on JWD ever denying that "the WTB&TS is really an organization". I certainly didn't. The Mafia's an organization too. What was the point in raising this non-issue?
Your lighthouse illustration was hilarious. Thank you for that. That's the first time I've heard a positive spin put on oscillating "new light".
Finally, would you care to be more specific on this?
The irony and coincidence going on here is too rich for me to swallow the idea it's mere happenstance or lack of spirit direction. Damn if I don't see spirit-direction at work! Sailor take warning.
OTWO:
Thanks for your thoughts, as always.
OM
-
Open mind
As I said, I'm a little slow of thought most days.
In taking a look at some of WHO's other posts, I'm guessing his tongue was at least partially in cheek while posting.
OM