I have pondered this one and even have most of the literature containing this strobe light. I would go with the "make it up as we go" scenario.
I loved the irony in the analogy of the lighthouse, as a warning to stay away from something dangerous.
What prompted the whopper of all Flip Flops? (Sodom & G. resurrection)
by Open mind 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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kurtbethel
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choosing life
I have a hard time believing these flip flops are just an oversight or mistake by various writers. I can believe that whenever they thought they needed to instill fear and maintain tighter control over the flock, they chose the hardline view of no hope for those destroyed.
It never ceases to amaze me that the society can't just leave questions like this alone. By trying to look like they have "special knowledge", they always end up looking extremely foolish.
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Fatfreek
Repeat after me -- "there are no FlipFlops, there are no FlipFlops, ...."
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Hope4Others
I was regular pioneering at that time. One day at one of my studies we were on that very page about Sodom an gomorrah and it was my turn to read. My study asked where are you reading?
Her book of course was the newer version. I did not bother to change my book since it was so well studied and I had way to much research written all over. I was in shock, embarrassed I
did not know what to say at that point.
Hope4Others
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Save My Soul
On Yahoo Answers, there is an individual that appears to be the WTBTS. The answer they gave is as follows:
By the 1870s, Jehovah's Witnesses had recognized that hell is not hot, that the soul is not immortal, that the Almighty has a personal name, that Jesus is not Jehovah, that most resurrected humans will live on earth, and that Jesus' ransom is indispensable to humankind's salvation. Those beliefs remain central to the religion, and remain uniquely identified with the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses 130 years later.
Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses have been unique in globally preaching such "good news" as the earthly resurrection hope. Jehovah's Witnesses have performed an incomparable preaching work for many decades. Of course, it is true that bible research has led to refinements in understanding the bible, but it is also undeniable that the beliefs and practices of early Christians became more accurate even during the decades during which the bible was still being written (eg. hope for Samaritans, circumcision, hope for Gentiles, dietary requirements, Sabbaths, tongues, commemoration of Last Supper). Early Christians were always happy when such matters were resolved, and immediately resumed the preaching work which Jehovah's Witnesses continue.
...(Acts 13:46-49) Paul and Barnabas said: “...Since you [Jews] are thrusting it away from you and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations. In fact, Jehovah has laid commandment upon us in these words, ‘I have appointed you as a light of nations, for you to be a salvation to the extremity of the earth.’” When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah... Furthermore, the word of Jehovah went on being carried throughout the whole country.
...(Acts 15:23-35;16:4,5) By their hand they wrote: “The apostles and the older men, brothers...we have come to a unanimous accord...For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled...” ...they gathered the multitude together and handed them the letter. After reading it, they rejoiced over the encouragement. And...teaching and declaring, with many others also, the good news of the word of Jehovah. ...Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem. Therefore, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day.
http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?art...
http://watchtower.org/e/jt/index.htm?art...
From door to door, the early Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses preached and preach the "good news of the Kingdom" rather than the minutia of Scripture. Clearly, the issue of salvation for the inhabitants of ancient Sodom is NOT central to the belief system of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is a relatively minor (but interesting) belief which anti-Witnesses balloon and harp on in an attempt to demean Jehovah's Witnesses and to distract from more important bible truths. Sadly, apostate former Witnesses and other anti-Witnesses seem preoccupied with regurgitating every bit of nonsense that may seem to portray Jehovah's Witnesses poorly. Anti-Witnesses neglect the work of sharing truly "good news" as Christ commanded; even more shamefully, they work to spread lies.
http://watchtower.org/e/20020401/article...
http://watchtower.org/e/19981001/article...
The vast majority of the nonsense regurgitated by apostate former Witnesses and other anti-Witnesses is so easily proven false as to merit no response whatsoever. Occasionally, it is interesting to shine some light on one of the anti-Witness "talking points".
http://watchtower.org/e/20010801/article...
For example, regarding the matter of whether the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected, some anti-Witnesses pretend that Jehovah's Witnesses have changed their teaching on this matter eight times; others less outrageously claim there have been five reversals on this matter.
This is nonsense, and factually wrong.
By the most generous (or strict, depending on one's point of view) of criteria, Jehovah's Witnesses have changed their idea on this relatively minor matter perhaps three times, *BUT* always because of vastly different reasons which continued their progression toward the truth. Consider...
** 0 (maybe). July 1879 was literally the first issue of what would become known as "The Watchtower". The magazine was founded in large part to champion the magnanimous nature of the Almighty, particularly since the first writers had been formerly associated with a magazine which embraced colder, sterner ideas about God. That first issue did misapply Ezekiel 16:53-55; the article's writer erroneously felt that this Scripture specifically extended the resurrection hope to the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. The point was made 129 years ago, and it can hardly be understood as a core doctrine of the Jehovah's Witness faith since the matter of Ezekiel 16:55 and Sodom then goes unmentioned for decades.
...(Ezekiel 16:55) And your own sisters, Sodom and her dependent towns, will return to their former state
** 1. In actuality, Jehovah's Witnesses for many decades understood that Jehovah had promised an earthly resurrection hope to the righteous and the unrighteous. The "unrighteous" were thought to be the dead who had sinned in ignorance; that certainly did not seem to include those who sinned willfully. The Scriptures explicitly describe an attempted gang-rape by a mob of Sodomites; what could be more willful than conspiracy to commit rape, especially considering Lot's attempts to reason with the mob? Since willfully unrighteous were not thought to qualify for resurrection, that would clearly have excluded resurrection for Sodom and Gomorrah.
...(Acts 24:15) There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
...(Genesis 19:4-5) The men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: "Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them."
** 2. Beginning in 1964/65, Jehovah's Witnesses realized that the earthly resurrection was not limited to those who had died only in either ignorance or relative righteousness. The Witnesses realized that the earthly resurrection was actually the hope of nearly EVERY person who has EVER died, and not just the righteous and the ignorant.
...(John 5:28,29) The hour is coming in which ALL those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out [emphasis added]
...(Acts 17:31) [Jehovah] has furnished a guarantee to ALL men in that he has resurrected [Jesus] from the dead. [emphasis added]
Jehovah's Witnesses recognized that there were many examples of those who actually would be resurrected, despite what might have previously seemed to disqualify them; examples included the cities of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum which were rebuked by Jesus himself. Matthew 11:21-24 specifically mentions that Capernaum is headed for "Hades", the biblical Greek term for the common grave of mankind from whence resurrection *IS* possible. Interestingly, the dead of Tyre/Sidon are specifically noted by Ezekiel as being in "Sheol", the Hebrew term for the common grave of mankind from whence resurrection is possible.
...(Matthew 11:21-24) Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! because if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Sidon that took place in you, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Consequently I say to you, It will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgment Day than for YOU. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Hades you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this very day. 24 Consequently I say to YOU people, It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you.
...(Ezekiel 32:21) The foremost men of the mighty ones will speak out of the midst of Sheol... They will certainly go down; they must lie down as the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
At that time, a relatively minor point noted that if the inhabitants of those cities would be resurrected, Matthew 11:24 would seem to offer hope to Sodom also.
** 3. By the end of 1988, Jehovah's Witnesses realized that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah had actually been referred to as an undeniable example of utter wickedness; unfavorable comparisons with Sodom were hyperboles. The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are NOT mentioned as being in the common grave of mankind from whence they might be resurrected; instead the inspired bible book Jude tells us plainly that Sodom and Gomorrah have been destroyed forever, in the lake of fire, Gehenna, which is the 'second death' from whence there is no resurrection. The point was not a major one, but it did need correcting.
http://watchtower.org/e/20020715/article...
...(Jude 7) Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them... are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.
...(Luke 12:4-5) I [Jesus] say to you, my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. 5 But I will indicate to you whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.
Thus, at the most, Jehovah's Witnesses have changed their point of view on this relatively minor matter at the most three times and always as part of a much larger doctrinal move forward (excepting the minor correction specific to Sodom in 1988). Those anti-Witnesses who pretend to juxtapose additional supposed 'back-and-forth' references do so dishonestly in a way that ignores the actual publication dates and exposes the accusers' true intentions to embarrass Jehovah's Witnesses rather than to disseminate truth as true Christians must. -
TheOldHippie
"A very liberal estimate of the number of persons that have ever lived on earth is 20 billion (20,000,000,000). Many students of the subject calculate that not nearly so many have lived." Well, researchers would give a number of 100,000,000,000 - 100 billions. There are two points of importance: 1: How long mankind has existed. But that point is not THAT important, because population was very low in pre-historic times, so whether mankind has been here for 6,000 years or half a million years is not THAT overshadowing. 2: The child mortality in Medieval Ages. A terrible amount of children died at birth or at very young age until recent years, if you look at paintings from the 15th or 16th centuries of families, you will see they are painted with 10 children but 5 or 6 of them are marked with wings or crosses or special dresses, telling they are dead. And this child mortality is an important factor when it comes to how many have really lived in Earth. And THAT again leads to the question whether they will be resurrected or not - and THAT again is also a question to which different answers have been given. On the one side, one comforts parents who have lost a child and tells them it will come back - on the other side, one states that, "Applying that to miscarriages and stillborn deliveries, is it reasonable that in the future Jehovah will insert back into the womb of a woman a partially developed embryo, or possibly a number of them? No, that does not seem so, nor is it likely that women who have had this sad experience actually expect that. Furthermore, resurrection is for persons who have lived as individuals before Jehovah. Even a child who lives for only a short time after birth has existed as a separate person. But a miscarried fetus or stillborn child, though from a Biblical standpoint considered a “soul” while it was developing, never actually lived as a separate and distinct individual. So it would appear that such situations do not fall under the resurrection provision outlined in the Bible." (W69, p224)
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Fatfreek
Save My Soul: Thus, at the most, Jehovah's Witnesses have changed their point of view on this relatively minor matter at the most three times.
Can't you count? This math challenge takes less than all the fingers on both of your hands.
On page 1 of this thread, which you obviously missed, our friend Kifoy laboriously and meticulously tabulated exact quotations from Watchtower publications (not from outside sources) to substantiate the 8 flip flops. They all, with the exception of the first -- and that one is not even questioned by your apologist friend ["individual that appears to be the WTBTS"] -- can be easily found on your Watchtower Library CD. Or were you so eager and anxious to sling erroneous mud that you didn't want to exert yourself by merely placing that CD into your drive bay?
To tickle your memory, here's a summary from Kifoy's post:
1879 - Will be resurrected
The Watchtower 1979, p. 7,8:
1955 - Will not be resurrected
The Watchtower 15. November 1955, p. 676:
1965 - Will be resurrected
The Watchtower 1. March 1965, p. 138:
1967 - Will not be resurrected
The Watchtower 1. July 1967, p. 409:
1974 - Will be resurrected
The Watchtower 8. October 1974, p. 20:
1988 - Will not be resurrected
The Watchtower 1. June 1988, p. 30:
1988 - Will be resurrected
Insight, Vol. 1 p. 985 (Gomorrah):
1989 - Will not be resurrected
Live forever... (1989) Chap. 21, p. 179:
You, Mr. Save My Soul, did nothing more than attempt to perpetuate Watchtower coverups by adding one of your own. Yes, this is your own, Mr. SMS. You may not have originated it but by quoting that set of lies and pasting them here for the eyes of innocent and unsuspecting lurkers, you subscribed to, validated, and ratified them. Shame on you.By the way, if I've somehow misread you, misquoted you, or mistakenly interpreted your posting, please let me know and I will promptly apologize.
Len Miller
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Quandry
I was regular pioneering at that time. One day at one of my studies we were on that very page about Sodom an gomorrah and it was my turn to read. My study asked where are you reading?
Her book of course was the newer version. I did not bother to change my book since it was so well studied and I had way to much research written all over. I was in shock, embarrassed I
did not know what to say at that point.
Hope4Others
Same here. I was on a study also. I didn't even know there had been a new Live Forever Book published. When I asked the question and the student's answer was completely opposite, I stopped, re-read, and asked again. When I found out the book had been updated, I felt completely embarrassed and left out of the loop. The light had changed. Not gradually, but completely opposite!!!! I remember being shaken. If only at that time I had done more research!!! But like a good dub, I glazed my eyes over and forged ahead.......
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Leolaia
I am pretty sure the 1955 date is not the date of the flip-flop....I believe the change was made under Rutherford's watch, probably in the 1930s when he got to be very restrictive on who would be resurrected. This was especially in light of his 1938 "Fill the Earth" teaching, which held that paradise earth would be populated largely by the offspring of the "great multitude" (lots and lots of sex and childbearing in the new system), not by those resurrected from the dead.
I'll see if I can pull up an earlier "No" quote than the 1955 one.
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VM44
Jehovah's Witnesses have been unique in globally preaching such "good news" as the earthly resurrection hope.
Yes, the "Good News" that a body replica inprinted with memories of the person who lived will be "created" in the future. Really something to which to look forward.