Has Anyone on the Board read the Gospel of Judas Ishariot?

by orangefatcat 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • orangefatcat
    orangefatcat

    As of late I've been facinated about the books or gospels that didn't become part of the Bible cannon.

    I am reading it presently and I have learned how this Gospel was found and the intricate work that has gone in to protecting and preserving the precious remnants of papyri that makes up this gospel of Judus Ishariot. I was wondering if any one else is interested in this sort of thing?

    My son just bought me the Gnostic Bible too, and it is quite interesting. It makes me wonder how the church in the 4th century chose to allow some writings and the reasons they chose not to include them in the Holy Bible as we know it today.

    I was just wondering how some of you may feel about this and gnostism in general.

    This is one of the reasons you haven't seen much of me online here as my nose is always in my books. I am most definetly a book worm

    Orangefatcat

  • kwintestal
    kwintestal

    Yes, I did read it a while ago. I thought it was interesting, but perhaps I missed what others found to be important in it. Maybe I'll have to look at it again. As I recall, the National Geographic website has a really good section on the gospel.

    Kwin

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers

    I have either read or watched documentaries on the Gospels According to Judas, Mary and Thomas. It is interesting to note several contradictions in these writings with not only the JW's but other religions as well. If I remember correctly, Judas was chosen to betray Christ because of his faithfulness, Mary's account focused more on self reflection and spirituality and Thomas quoted Jesus as saying something like, 'Do not look for me in buildings of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood, and I'll be there. Lift a rock, and you will find me'--something like that anyway. As anti-relgion as the WTB&TS is, I'm amazed that they haven't considered these other writings, since the Bible as we know it today, is comprised of writings selected by the early Catholic Church. But I guess as screwed up as they are regarding the Bible, I can't imagine how much worse it would be, if they had even more ancient writings to work with.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Yes, I have read it, and I find it quite interesting -- not as a witness to any "historical Judas" but as a witness to the development of Sethian gnosticism in the second century AD. You may find second-century gnostic works quite esoteric and difficult to understand, as they have their own jargon and conceptual structure (dependent on Platonism, wisdom theology, biblical exegesis, and vestiges of Egyptian and Semitic mythologies), but they really do flow from the same proto-gnostic stream of much of what was accepted in orthodox Christianity -- one may compare material in the Gospel of John, Colossians, and Ephesians (e.g. the prologue in John 1:1-18 reflects a strikingly similar construction and interpretation of Genesis as the Trimorphic Protennoia). The Gospel of Thomas is probably the closest thing to the proto-gnostic stuff in the NT, and there is probably early and valuable material in the Apocryphon of James and the Dialogue of the Savior. And even second-century orthodox apologists drew on similar Platonic and exegetical traditions to develop their own theologies. I view early Christianity as a diverse mixture of different perspectives, drawing on different forms of Judaism and Hellenistic influences, which later differentiated in the second century to more distinct branches that developed in their own directions. This is an important point to understanding why gospels and tractates reflecting more mature gnosticism (i.e. those written in the second and third centuries, such as the Gospel of Judas) are not in the NT and why they never would have been contenders for the canon. Some had limited circulation only in certain communities; others were rejected in orthodox churches as heterodox, just as gnostics rejected certain "proto-orthodox" writings like the Pastorals. It is similar to the situation in the rabbinical Jewish canon -- the books that were regarded as authorities by the post-Pharisee rabbis did not necessarily include books (such as Jubilees, 1 Enoch, the Testament of Levi) that were authoritative for the Essenes, and even less the sectarian works of the Qumran covenanters (such as the Community Rule, the Damascus Document, the Temple Scroll). Canonicity was determined gradually by concensus and different communities made different decisions on what they regarded as authoritative. There is not one single Bible canon; we have a multiplicity of canons (such as the canon of the Catholic church, the Greek Orthodox canon, the Ethiopian Orthodox canon, the Nestorian canon, the Armenian canon, the Russian Orthodox canon, the standard Protestant canon, the Anglican canon, etc.). As for the gospels, there developed an early concensus (by the middle of the second century AD) in some early orthodox communities that only four gospels were recognized as authoritative. This is evident especially in the gospel harmonies of Justin Martyr and Tatian. But other communities had other views. The Marcionite churches accepted only one gospel, a version of the gospel of Luke. Other gnostic churches accepted a wider range of gospels and Jewish-Christian communities had their own gospels as well.

    BTW, April DeConick has a new book out on the Gospel of Judas that challenges National Geographic's translation and interpretation of this text. She maintains (alongside a growing number of scholars) that Judas is indeed viewed negatively in this work.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    I have seen the Gospel of St Thomas. It is short (only 114 verses in one chapter), but powerful. What I notice about it is, when one understands that the apostles were peasants that were incapable of independent thinking and Jesus wanted to teach them to think independently, these books are actually going against the teachings of man-made religion. Secular and religious leaders sought to keep man as bicameral as possible so they could exploit them for selfish gain, and Jesus blew that. Notice that, as is commonly understood, most people will not see that in their Bibles (or they would be leaving religions in droves).

    Personally, I believe that all the books belong in the Bible, not just the 66 that were selected (sorry, OBVES and anyone else that uses the 66 as a foundation to calculate the end of the world). Even though I do not believe in the Bible as a guide for modern man (it was, however, a guide for bicameral peasants seeking to learn to think on their own), it does contain man's history toward progress toward a proper civilization. Unfortunately, it also reveals that every time we get close, some unstoppable force seems to squash movements and stifle man's progress toward full independent thinking and action. A few always have to spoil it for everyone, and St Augustine's culling of the Bible was no exception.

    Read in its entirity and in fully integrated fashion, the Bible is a fascinating story. And that includes those books that no one knows about because they were culled from the book. Used improperly, however, and the Bible becomes a tool to hold back mankind (and the Watchtower Society is a master at abusing the Bible: not only they take it literally when it was not meant to be taken literally, but they take it out of context to support their own doctrines.)

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    I saw a documentary on these gospels about 12 months ago and was fascinated by them.

    Have to admit i havent read any but may do in future.

    Gospel of Mary Magdelane looked quite interesting. They were trying to say that it says she tenderly kissed Jesus, but it was all conjecture as there were a few words missing, for example "kiss".

    Paul

  • zagor
    zagor

    Yup I've got it. It is interesting but I highly doubt Judas or anyone close to him actually wrote it. It has all the hallmarks of gnostic writings so I can see why early church in 4th century rejected it because they pretty much rejected everything gnostic. Mind you there have been books that were far more popular than those that made it into the official bible. Like for instance, Revelation by Peter was way more popular than that of John which if I'm not mistaken almost didn't made it as a part of New Testament.

  • MissingLink
    MissingLink

    I haven't read it, but I was actually just thinking about it this morning. Where did you get it? Is it on-line? Is it part of the Gnostic Bible?

  • Narkissos
  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Hello, Terry.

    As you're introducing yourself to Christian Gnosticism, I thought you might find this interesting.

    Hermetic Gnosticism: A Pathetically Inadequate Overview

    IVxiii AL, Sol 15 Virgo 37, Die Lunæ

    To start with, it is impossible to separate Gnosticism from Hermeticism in any meaningful way after about the second century CE. The reason for this will become apparent.

    The easiest way to define Hermetic Gnosticism is to contrast it to its slightly more famous cousin, Christian Gnosticism . It takes volumes to define Christian Gnosticism in its entirety so - for the purposes of this discussion - the focus will be on that which distinguishes it from the Hermetic variety.

    A previous post, “Gnosticism: a working definition”, defined the nature of the dilemma of Humanity according to the Gnostic view. The various forms of Gnosticism (I will deal with these in a separate post in which I question whether Gnosticism should properly be defined as a religion at all), all propose various ways of achieving Gnosis; that is, of finding a way to 'awaken' humanity and to eventually get everyone back to the Pleroma. Christian Gnosticism presents Christ, the Logos , (lit.: the word. See the beginning of the Gospel of John) who with his twin, the unmanifested Sophia, provides a means of achieving Gnosis.

    A perusal of strictly Christian Gnostic literature will show that it is from this variety that the gloomiest views of the world originate. This is provides the key to understanding Hermetic Gnosticism. One of the defining characteristics of Gnosticism is something called the doctrine of anti-cosmos. Simply stated, it is the belief that, owing to the way the phenomenal universe (lit.: the universe that we can sense) originated, this universe is altogether objectionable. There is nothing redeeming in it and the sooner it is escaped, the better for all concerned.

    This is the point at which Christian and Hermetic Gnosticism differ. Hermetics have never subscribed to this view. To them, the universe is a playground, a school of higher learning and, moreover, it is a place in which they find themselves because they voluntarily chose to go there.

    The other significant difference between Christian and Hermetic Gnosticism is the way in which Gnosis is pursued. The Christian way is, when all the trimmings are stripped away, to pray and hope that Gnosis will be granted. The Hermetic way is to go out and get it. Hermeticism is the root of the Western Mysteries, so-called. In other words, the method of achieving Gnosis for the Hermetic Gnostic is Magick. Magick will be discussed in another post.

    The reason that one cannot separate Hermeticism from Gnosticism is this inherent desire to do something, anything to solve the problem presented by our ‘miserable’ state. Even within the Christian variety, various forms of Magick or Alchemy (which really amounts to the same thing) have been practiced by every author on the subject of which we have adequate record.

    http://gideonjagged.blogspot.com/2005/10/hermetic-gnosticism-pathetically.html

    I find Hermetic Gnosticism to be an interesting window from which to look upon our shared world.

    As above, so below.

    Regards,

    Nate

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