by bite me 10 Replies latest watchtower bible
Hi,
I've been reading Proverbs, one of my favorite books in the Bible. Recently I decided to read it again to dig a little deeper. It's a wonderful book, telling us how we should live in a way God would be pleased.
I came across this verse Prov 8:27 which says When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
Prov. was primarly written by King Solom, if I understand that correctly. What is meant by the above verse? "I was there" King Solom? Is this trying to say that he was there with Jesus too?
The "speaker" of Proverbs chapter 8 is "personified wisdom." See verses1 - 4.
Bite Me
"I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion." (Vs. 12) Widsom is the subject of Proverbs 8. However, many Christians apply this by extension to Christ. Paul in his letter to the Colossians says of Christ: "He is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth....He is before all things and in him all things hold together. (1:15-17) "...Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (2:3)
Especially in the previous chapter you can derive from it that the wisdom is a woman type of figure. She was there in the beginning. It is our preconceived idea about Jesus being there that puts a strain on explaining this verse. Check for example chapter 2. First there is talk about wisdom, knowledge, understanding....then all of a sudden the focus changes to a foreign woman who is no good.
Think this through. Solomon was married to a foreign woman: his first wife was an Egyptian princess (not to mention all the latter ones). He wrote this in his "good" days. Is his advice about the foreign woman on par with the first part of chapter 2 and his own life?
Check chapter 5. Verse 15 and further have in WT literature always received a sexual connotation. Maybe they are right. But the change of focus is the same as in chapter 2. It is about wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc, and forget the foreign woman, drink from your own spring well. Jesus said in John 4: The water I give will produce a spring well within.
The fun part is this: Compare chapter 8 with chapter 1 of the John Gospel. It says that the word was in the beginning with God. It does not say that Jesus is the logos. It only says the the principle which is called logos has become flesh, has become flesh in the body of Jesus.
It does not say Jesus was a master workman. The principle was. In the word of proverbs: wisdom, the native female principle.
Sounds to gnostic? Well the bible is in part about just that.
Cheers
Borgia
wow, you all gave me thoughts to think about. Borgia, interesting thoughts as well. I'm going to compare the verses that you mentioned. Something else came to mind. When modern translations of the Bible use 'she' the NWT that I looked at online so it is probably that way in their bible too, changes 'she' to 'it' . Does the WT have a thing against women?
By all means NO! Where did you get that idea? No, women make good breeding stock. Good householders, good cooks,etc.
But....eh.....there's one thing though....they should remain quiet, that's all.
O and ...submissive....
and not to bright...in comparison to the local hotshot jdumb.....did I forget anything? I would suspect Mary to know more about this subject.
Cheers
Borgia
Women should remain quiet, huh? Well, if that was so God would have not gave us a mouth and a voice. I'm not sticking to the remain quiet rule set by anyone unless I get arrested and I have the RIGHT to remain silent.
1 -11 Do you hear Lady Wisdom calling? Can you hear Madame Insight raising her voice? She's taken her stand at First and Main,
at the busiest intersection. Right in the city square
where the traffic is thickest, she shouts, "You—I'm talking to all of you,
everyone out here on the streets! Listen, you idiots—learn good sense!
You blockheads—shape up! Don't miss a word of this—I'm telling you how to live well,
I'm telling you how to live at your best. My mouth chews and savors and relishes truth—
I can't stand the taste of evil! You'll only hear true and right words from my mouth;
not one syllable will be twisted or skewed. You'll recognize this as true—you with open minds;
truth-ready minds will see it at once. Prefer my life-disciplines over chasing after money,
and God-knowledge over a lucrative career. For Wisdom is better than all the trappings of wealth;
nothing you could wish for holds a candle to her.
From The Message Bible.
Sylvia
When modern translations of the Bible use 'she' the NWT that I looked at online so it is probably that way in their bible too, changes 'she' to 'it'
You're right, I just checked it up.
The fact is that Hebrew (like French or Spanish for instance) doesn't have a distinct neutral gender: all words are either masculine or feminine. Chokhma ("wisdom") would then be a "she" even when it is not personified, requiring the English translation "it". But in Proverbs 8--9 where the personification is obvious (speech in 1st person, I) the context favours a "she". The NWT doesn't "play the game" of personification as it were, I'm not sure why... it doesn't really clash with WT doctrine.
The NWT doesn't "play the game" of personification as it were, I'm not sure why... it doesn't really clash with WT doctrine.
Since the WT teaches, obliquely of course, that Jesus in His preexistence was this Wisdom, calling it a "she" would raise quite a few eyebrows, don't you think?
Sylvia
