Immigration

by Princess Daisy Boo 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • Layla33
    Layla33

    Frankly you both went off topic - this was about immigration because of crime & corruption and had nothing to do with race/travel/extended stays. Yes there has always been crime and corruption but it's really really is out of hand.

    Are you saying it is out of hand now or was it not out of hand before when the entire international community condemned you? I am just trying to understand why you are saying it is any different than it was before when millions of people were treated like animals and denied access to their fundamental liberities. No one is disputing that there is crime and corruption, I just am trying to understand how you think it is any different than it was before? Honestly, I think it has to do with the perspective. And that was my point. I feel sad about the corruption and I think any white south african that can get an ancestral visa should do so and leave. But I also believe that there has to be people that are committed to the long term goals and progress of South Africa regardless of the hardships they are facing now, and those are going to be most likely people that can't rely on an ancestral visa because that is their land and home. Does that make sense?

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Reading that convinces me that something is not quite right about you.

    But, you've never met me. Go back & read your posts, and your insulting comments to Skeeter and Skeeter's ideas.

    Skeeter

  • Bumble Bee
    Bumble Bee

    First I want to say I haven't read all the posts, but I deal on an almost daily basis with people from several regions in Africa that have fled their homelands to come to Canada.

    Some of the stories I hear are heartbreaking, and at times it takes everything I have not to shed some tears in their presence. It's not even safe for them to go back and they have left everything and in some cases everyone they have.

    I have met a young boy of 14 that escaped rebels with several of his friends and had to walk weeks across the desert to reach a refugee camp, several of his friends didn't make it. He came to Canada as a 14 year old boy with nobody but the "brothers" he had escaped with. He found his mother and some siblings with the help of the Red Cross here and went back to the Sudan and ended up in a prison there for a short time and almost didn't make it back to Canada. He's almost 18 now and planning on attending Law School next fall.

    This is but one story I have heard and they are all heartbreaking. I'm happy they have been able to make it here to Canada and are able to make a new life for themselves.

    I cannot comment on the situation in SA or many of the other countries. The people I have met all love their homeland and would love to go back if it was safe for them to do so.

    BB

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Frankly you both went off topic

    And, that's why I apologized to the original poster for partially hijacking her thread.

    Skeeter

  • Layla33
    Layla33

    But, you've never met me. Go back & read your posts, and your insulting comments to Skeeter and Skeeter's ideas.

    Skeeter

    Why are you referring to yourself in the second person? I do not know you, I never wrote any of my references to you commenting on Africa, to anything personal to you. If you can't separate that when discussing and debating subjects, maybe you need to do any inventory of yourself when responding to topics where someone disagrees with your perspective. I can't hold your hand here, I can just say if you are not detached than you will go all over, as you have done and make it something it is not.

    You insulted people that disagreed with your opinion of Africa, as delusional. That's what you wrote, no one wrote it for you. That was pretty insulting. And even when I responded I did not focus on that and honestly did not make many remarks towards you, just overall on my experiences and thoughts on Africa.

    You came back with assertions about someone saying you didn't like black people? Who said that? No one. You made that up. Then you wrote all over the internet and beyond link stories and books back and forth without any real connection to the topic at hand but more about protecting your ability to remark on a place you never been. Then you started making unprovoked silly retorts to me about checking with me first, making your thoughts known but continually referencing me. Why? I wasn't focused on you in that way, it didn't make a bit of sense why you were getting that emotionally and ego centered in your response or why on earth you were focusing so much on me. This topic is not about me, if you don't like my opinion, stay on the topic, you don't have to engage me at all. But you did. Then you ask me a question about places I would actually move in Africa, and I should have realized that it was not part of this topic, but you starting some kind of egocentric challenge, but along with it, to which you responsed with some ridiculous silly response up to and including, "let's buy a ticket and go" or however you refer to yourself in the second person. Of course I scratched my head through out. Then finally you want to buy me a ticket to Africa. Sorry, but that causes me to believe that something is not right with you. With all the people that I disagreed with on this topic, not one went to the levels that you did and only you can answer why, but it made no sense. That's my bottom line. I do not know you, but this behavior is incredibly unnecessary when it is just a difference opinion.

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    I am just trying to understand why you are saying it is any different than it was before when millions of people were treated like animals and denied access to their fundamental liberities.

    Apartheid was a total unjust show of power by one group, to totally oppress another group. I'm glad it's over.

    Does the Apartheid injustices of the past play a significant role in the current violence? If so, then I imagine it would be mainly black on white violence.

    Can a poster in South Africa comment? Is it mainly black on white violence....or is a substantial part of it black on black violence, which should not stem from Apartheid oppression by the whites.

    Skeeter

  • Layla33
    Layla33

    A study was done on the affects of long term psychological affects of oppression, hate and discrimination, where people/animals are mistreated and abused over long periods of time and the outcomes of that. The results of the findings were pretty interesting. In all studies the result with people/animals internatlizing these things and turning on each other. This has been seen through out many different scenarios and on animals it was even more abundantly clear, with rats engaging in killer like and savage behavior towards each other after being victims of said behavior.

    Just thought I would add this to this debate as again, it is being taken from a TOPIC about immigration into something else.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    There are many sides to Africa quite obviously and many stories to tell - we have heard some of them from those living in parts of the country. I have no reason to doubt any of them at all. I do believe though that the majority of people of all races living in SA want to move forward and get along but I also believe that oppression and corruption at the top fuel fires rather than put them out.

    This is simply another observation by an African correspondent and while I am not into the political labelling, the overall content is what he has seen ( Jan Lamprect ) sammieswife.

    A Brief History of
    Sub-Saharan De-Colonization

    One of the best-kept secrets of Africa is the cruelty shown by black Marxists towards those whom they were supposedly trying to liberate. The de-colonization of Africa was not a pretty process. The British washed their hands of Africa as quickly as they possibly could. They showed little interest in giving their colonies over to the best black people, and did their utmost to absolve themselves of responsibility for Africa. Instead, any pretender to the throne was good enough.

    The irresponsible, power-hungry Marxist liberators loved this approach. It suited them down to the ground. Now they could waltz in and pretend to be the “voice of the people.” Whites, of course, were completely aghast by this. African colonies like Rhodesia, for example, were very efficiently run. A country like South Africa had annual growths in GDP second only to that of Japan. All the colonies were developing quickly and showing great promise. Into this stepped nobodies who had no experience of government and who only knew Marxism-Leninism.

    The whites were completely opposed to a handover involving people whose policies would destroy the countries in question. Whites argued that these people had no real interest in uplifting the blacks. Furthermore, the blacks would actually be worse off under their rule. So-called "white reactionaries" said, from the start, that the pretenders were only after power and that they had literally nothing positive to contribute to the long-term development of Africa. This is how the friction developed which led to the liberation wars in Zimbabwe, Namibia and South Africa.

    The Marxist pretenders wanted complete power, immediately. The whites opposed this irresponsible demand. It should be said that once the communists started financing wars, the whites began a process of inclusion, and of finding the most suitable black people to hand over to. This happened in both Zimbabwe and South Africa. In both cases, there were suitable anti-Communists whom we wanted to hand power over to. These were people we believed could rule the country successfully. Bishop Muzorewa won a free and fair election and became the first black ruler of Zimbabwe/Rhodesia (as it was called for a time). But the Marxists did not like this and continued a war against him until they won. Similarly, in South Africa, Chief Buthelezi of the Zulus seemed to be the most promising pro-Western man. But the ANC was quick to attack him and fight bitterly against him so that he could never gain the support of the majority of blacks.

    It is worth noting the attitude of the blacks themselves, the masses in whose name all this was being done. The race relations between blacks and whites in the colonial days were far better than now. It is true there was racism and true that there was a certain amount of unhappiness, but it was nothing like the problems of today.

    There is a popular mythology which has been spread around the world by communist propagandists which creates the impression that black people were so frustrated that they were ready to “storm the Bastille” in order to remove themselves from the yoke of colonialism. This is not true, especially among the older blacks. The communists got most of their support from the impressionable youth. But, the darkest secret of all is that in order to win the blacks to their side, the Marxist Liberators had to use extreme forms of violence. Terror was the tactic. The terror was gruesome and hideous.

    We whites were outraged by the use of Marxist terror, and we saw these Marxist pretenders as being nothing more than terrorists who would stoop to any level -- to murder, torture or lying in order to come to power. Often, people in the rest of the world were amazed at why, a mere 250,000 whites in Rhodesia held out so bitterly against the likes of Mugabe and Nkomo. But that was because we believed them to be the embodiment of evil. If they were the voice of the people, then why did the people not flock to them? If they were the saviors of the black masses, then why did they have to beat and murder black people and terrorize them into subjugation in order to win their support?

    If the black people were so keen to get rid of white rule then why did six million blacks not swamp 250,000 whites and murder us all? They outnumbered us twenty to one. They could have killed us with spears and pangas if they hated us so much. But they didn’t.

    Why?

    The truth is, many blacks were not too keen on the Liberators. So the Liberators had to conduct an “ethnic cleansing,” or to be more accurate, a purging of the blacks. Anyone who opposed their Marxist-Leninist nonsense had to dealt with. Any black man who was friendly to whites or a supporter of the whites had to be murdered or intimidated. Black policemen and black soldiers and their families were attacked. What is hardly ever mentioned is that in both Rhodesia and South Africa, one found thousands of black men who were either Policemen or who fought in our armies. Right to the end, there were blacks fighting to keep the whites in power. There were blacks who were not impressed with the Marxist pretenders or their methods.

    Some of the finest troops in the Rhodesian and South African armies were blacks who were opposed to communism. The deadly Selous Scouts for example, were composed mostly of blacks in a counter terrorist role. In South Africa, 32 battalion consisted of blacks and Portuguese who were opposed to Marxists.

    The Liberators considered anyone who co-operated with the whites to be a “sellout” or a traitor. They used sheer terror to prevent blacks from being friendly towards the whites. Any moderate black, who cooperated with the whites, was in danger of being beaten, or, worse still, murdered in the most brutal fashion imaginable. The Liberators were not nice, kind, democratic people. They were people who were hungry for power and who used any means to get it. They killed black and white civilians alike in a reign of terror in order to get their way.

    It is worth giving an example of their approach. In Zimbabwe, the war was fought in the rural areas, often far away from civilization. A gang of guerrillas would approach a village and gather together all the people who maybe numbered several hundred. They would try to convince the villagers to support them. They would even teach them politically orientated songs. They would indoctrinate them with Marxist ideology. But then they would warn them of what would happen to a "sellout." They would then pick a man from the audience, to demonstrate to the villagers what they would do to someone who cooperated with the whites. They might pick a man and then start beating him while forcing the villagers to watch. On some occasions they would begin cutting off flesh from his living body. A favorite target was to cut a man’s ears off, or cut his lips off. They might cut his lips off with a knife or a bayonet or even rip them off with pliers. Then they would call his wife and ask her to cook her husband’s flesh. Then they would make her eat it.

    All this would be done in full view of the horrified villagers. For all to see, by way of an object lesson, they would beat an innocent man, torture him and finally bayonet him to death. This, they would declare, is what will happen to anyone who cooperates with the whites.

    In South Africa a similar tactic was practiced in order to terrify all the blacks into submission. Winnie Mandela’s infamous statement about freeing South Africa with boxes of matches is all about killing blacks who opposed the ANC and who worked with the whites. The ANC wanted a method of killing people, which would terrorize all black opposition into submission. So they invented the infamous “necklace.” They dreamed up the idea of putting a tire around a person’s neck (i.e., a necklace) and filling it with petrol, which would be set alight. The person would thus burn to death. But, it was not as simple as that. The person would often be beaten, stoned, set alight and maybe, in the end stabbed to ensure that they were dead. This is the dreadful terror which Winnie Mandela and the rest of the ANC are so proud of. For all the errors of the whites, such methods of terror were not used by whites against blacks in any of the colonies.

    The truth is, whites never resorted to such horrific means. Many people outside South Africa may remember seeing film footage of black people being killed in such a dreadful manner. Hundreds were killed by the ANC like this and yet nobody speaks out against them. All those people who died in such a horrible manner were enemies of the ANC.

    How then can the ANC in South Africa, or ZANU in Zimbabwe, stand up and claim to be democratic? How can they claim to be the voice of the black people? They had to murder and beat blacks into submission who did not want to go along with their plans. Most of the liberation wars consisted not of attacks on whites, but attacks on blacks. They spent most of their time working on the minds of the black people either with their seductive lies or by beating them and terrorizing them. Virtual civil wars raged in black townships or in the province of KwaZulu/Natal.

    For every one white person who died, maybe thirty or more black people were killed. The whites knew this and they armed blacks wherever they could. In Zimbabwe protected villages were set up. In South Africa various self-defencse units were formed. It is, however, hard to combat terror if one does not resort to terror oneself. Since we never used terror as a tactic we were at a disadvantage.

    The people who won the liberation wars did not do so on a wave of popular support from oppressed blacks. They spent years playing a propaganda and psychological warfare game. They used persuasion in all its forms, starting with mere lies and graduating onwards to outright torture and murder.

    As Mwezi Twala told me, the communist view is that one must fight using all means. There is no such thing as right or wrong. Any tactic and method used in order to win is right. The ANC has stated this openly. It has said any method used to bring down Apartheid was correct. The same logic applies to the overthrow of white rule in Zimbabwe, Namibia and other southern African countries. It was not just South Africa where terror was employed. Terror was used everywhere.

    One should therefore call into question the right of communists to claim that they are the voice of black Africans. In my opinion they are not. They no longer cut people’s body parts off, nor do they set them alight, but they still use force when it’s needed. They are not averse to murdering blacks who oppose them. The ANC has not ruled South Africa long enough for us to see them using state force to cower the black masses, but that day may yet come. In Zimbabwe, in 2000, Mugabe sent thugs into villages to beat up those who supported his democratic opposition. Others were sent to “re-education camps” (a nice old Soviet-era phrase!) In the 1980’s the Matabele tribe in southern Zimbabwe expressed its dissatisfaction with Mugabe. He responded by engaging in genocide. He sent the North Korean-trained 5th Brigade in to beat, torture and murder black people. He killed approximately 2,000 people. Entire villages were wiped out and people were thrown down wells. Not a peep was heard out of the rest of the world.

    Imagine if the whites had done such a thing? The world would have declared war on us and bombed us into submission. But, a black communist can do it and hardly anyone takes notice. Such are the double standards the world applies to us in Africa. The white man is measured by one yardstick and the black Marxist by another. Everyone wants equality and fairness, but if that were so, then one would hope that murder by a black man is the same as murder by a white man. Murder by a white man must not be seen as being more evil than murder by a black man. Murder is murder and evil is evil.

    Whites never committed such heinous crimes, but the black communists could cut people up, kick babies around like footballs until they die, hamstring men before killing them or rape and kill women -- and nobody says a thing. This is the big, deep, dark secret of the rulers of southern Africa today. The same people who wear suits and drink champagne, and are lauded across the world, are the same men who once ordered their followers to put Portuguese people on sawmills or who planted landmines to blow up white and black civilians alike. Life to them was cheap then and it remains so now.

    How can these Marxists claim to love their own people and watch out for their welfare when they indulged in cruelty beyond imagination? These hard and harsh people do not care for their own kind. They care only for themselves. They kill black people even more readily than they kill whites. But they preach human rights and refuse to hang murderers. They cannot tell right from wrong, nor are they interested in it. They rose to power by terrorizing innocent people. Now that they are in power they protect drug dealers and criminals.

    These people, from the first, never cared for right or wrong. They never cared for blacks and they find whites a nuisance.

    We whites may have committed crimes, we may have done many wrongs (including keeping black people down) but our crimes are far less than theirs. We have also, in the final analysis learned from our mistakes and most of us regret that we did not change our ways more willingly or earlier. But the communists who are in power see no wrong in anything they did. They are bereft of conscience. This is part of the training they got from the Russians and others. Everything they do in the pursuit of power is correct. They never do wrong. These moral degenerates now run countries like multimillionaires and smile in front of cameras. But their hands are covered in the blood of the black people they murdered to get there.

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Following is a dialogue from the above posts between Layla & Skeeter. The indented portion is what Layla wrote (one is Aliboy). Below each is my reaction to it. Layla used words like "childish" "immature" "grow up" "silly" and "ignorant" to describe my knowledge based on books & materials I've read. There was no reason to use these words to attack my thoughts. Other words should and could have been used. At one point, Layla likened me at an American bigot. No wonder people feel personally attacked on JWD. I can only defend my thougths. And, I will do that at this point.

    ******************

    Can you even name more than 10 countries in Africa?

    Implies that I’m ignorant on Africa.

    ****

    No offense at all, but you shouldn't comment on a place you have never been. Or maybe you shouldn't comment as an authority on a place you have never been. Anyone can comment on anything, but I just feel your opinion doesn't have much merit.

    This implies that one can not simply “read” on a subject to have an opinion. The books I read were well written, in my view. Therefore, to respond to your opinion that my opinion was baseless, I gave you the links to my materials in which I formed my opinion.

    ****

    Aliboy wrote, “The ignorance, contempt and deep seated hatred for Africans, and all things African as demonstrated by some on this thread would have been run of the mill in the grand scheme of things; except that, at one time or perhaps they still do, the publishers of such posts believed in the Brotherhood of Man. Makes one wonder what they thought the Good News was - and still is all about, including Kingdom Rule. Hmm!”

    My comments that I am in no way racist were to set the record strait that I am not a racsist. They were directed at Aliboy’s comments, not Layla.

    ****
    Anyone can open up one book and write a summation, which is what you have done.

    I’ve opened up more than one book. Again, this is why I put some of what I’ve read on this site.

    ****
    I don't have a passing interest in African politics, I have studied it, been there, married to someone who lived there for the majority of their life, there's a difference, and before you go asserting my beliefs on anything.

    Your self-professed expertise in the area is why I now refer you as the expert on African politics.

    ****
    Ask the questions and don't assume. Otherwise you look more ignorant than you already appear to be.

    Ouch. Guess my years of education and reading are nothing. Guess this makes you the Big Man on Campus when it comes to Africa. Hence, I referred to you as the expert.

    ****
    Just like I don't agree that the white government who went in and illegally took the land from the black farmers and workers either. Neither one of these are right, but before you go blaming one, look at where this barbarity started in the first place. Until you ask why, you are no where.

    Yes, I totally agree with you! The original taking of lands by the whites are the MAJOR problem which stems all these other problems.. That was detailed in the book, “Africa: 50 years of Independence.” But, that was “just one book” that I based my sweeping generalizations about Africa on. Did you read my post?

    ****
    I called you ignorant on this subject and I stand by it. We are talking about something tangible that you must experience in order to have a true and honest perspective.

    Ouch, again.

    ****
    I simply stated my ideas on someone stating their case about a country they have not even visited, it is ignorant to speak on that subject with authority in RESPONSE TO YOU.

    So, reading well-written political books renders my understanding on the subject “ignorant”.

    *****
    The rest of what you wrote was childish and silly.

    Ouch.

    ***
    Skeeter, Grow up. When you have an honest intelligent question to ask me do so. I am not moderating this thread, I am giving my opinion on this topic. If you don't like it, just scroll past me and speak about how you feel, but don't think that insulting a billion plus people like the entire continent of Africa is a mess and those that don't see it are delusional is going to go without a word. Isn't that what you wrote? You don't think it is offensive and out of line especially from someone who has never been there. How about if someone said you are a mess, but they never met you. Is that right? Are you getting it yet??? You have no real interest in Africa, this is all about your ego right now and it's so obvious.

    Now, I’m being called a child. Once again, my readings on the subject render my opinion worthless.

    *****
    Layla,I ask you for 10 places you’d live in Africa. You gave me 12, great. I look at the 12, and find 6 that I’d live in (based off of US Department of State reports and my readings). I post back on my thoughts to your answer, including where I got my information. Of those 12 nice places to live, only 6 appear to be real choices. I stand by it, based on the books I’ve read, news stories, and advice from the Department of State

    *****
    You gave an opinion, that I took exception to, because it was offensive and insulting to all the native Africans that live there

    Now, it is you who is speaking on behalf of “all native Africans.” Isn’t this a generalization?

    ****
    However, you made a sweeping generalization on the entire continent, a continent you have never set foot to live. I responded initially to that because that's silly to me because there are a lot of nice places to live, where people would never imagine leaving and would totally disgusted and insulted by some American sitting on an internet pronouncing about their lives - I know plenty of these people and I spoke not just for my own personal opinion but the many African friends and former family that I have. Is there no wonder that a lot of the rest of the world considers Americans to be the most self-centered, ignorant, ethnocentric bigots on the planet. And get this, when they actually surveyed happiness in the world, guess where a lot of the world's happiest people lived? Right there in Africa and guess where some of the most angry, depressed, unhappy lived? Right here in the US.

    “Some American…prouuncing lives….most self-centered, ignorant, ethnocentric bigots on the planet.” If that’s not a personal insult, I don’t know what is.

    ****
    You are an adult, act like one and don't make it petty and out of line.

    Another personal insult.

    ***
    If you have anything to say to me directly, stop polluting the topic and make the PM your friend. Otherwise, stop making it about me, since you proclaim you don't care what I think. Your constant references to me show otherwise and it is way over the context of this thread. Are we clear?

    You can publicly insult me, and I can not publicly defend?
    ****
    Are we clear? I never called YOU anything

    See above.
    ****
    You know I have a right to think whatever I like about any country in Africa. Where I would live and where I could possibly live is COMPLETELY out of the context of this discussion, this is where you are irrational and out of line.

    Yes, you can live anywhere....despite US State Department advice against it. You publicly posted that these 12 places were good places you’d live. So, it’s RELEVENT and in context on the discussion that Africa has countries which are not a mess. I will follow the rational advice of the US Department of Justice and stay the hell out of Nigeria, Sudan, Kenya, and Moracco.

    ***
    Reading that convinces me that something is not quite right about you.

    Insult. Plus, you never met me or experienced my beautiful face, kind heart, and warm smile. How can base your judgment on a few lines I type or books I've read? You have to experience me to know me. Don't generalize about me, without having first-hand knowledge of hwo I am. Isn't that your logic rule?

    ****
    Buy me a ticket so I can live in peace?! I am peace now and I am peace wherever I go because I carry peace with me, I am not out looking for it. Nothing you said has any relevence to this topic

    Buying you a ticket to live in your choices of Nigeria, Kenya, etc. is a joke. I wouldn’t waste the money. More importantly, I would not send any person into these countries. They are not safe.

    ****
    I never wrote any of my references to you commenting on Africa, to anything personal to you

    See above.

    *****
    You insulted people that disagreed with your opinion of Africa, as delusional.

    Out of Africa and the notion of a “Safari”, is how I used to picture Africa (prior to reading books on the subject). It was what I saw every Sunday on Wild Country Safari. I am going to generalize, but I venture, a lot of Americans conjour up these images when thinking about Africa.

    The posters in South Africa stated above that a “Safari” or being there as a tourist is not the same as living there. From the books I’ve read which cover Afrcian countries other than South Africa, they have the same perspective. Even the US Department of State shows that Kenya’s game parks are great, but not in many parts outside of it.

    It’s the dichotomy between the corrupt, squalid places in Africa and the game parks that I was referring to as creating a delusional image of Africa. It’s delusional to think that all of Africa is a romantic game park, or a Safari with china, linens, etc. Most Africans don’t live in this type of luxury.

    *****
    You came back with assertions about someone saying you didn't like black people? Who said that? No one.

    See above, that was to set the record straight as I could not tell who the other poster was referring to. I am not a bigot.

    ****
    Then you started making unprovoked silly retorts to me about checking with me first, making your thoughts known but continually referencing me. Why?

    You studied, lived there, married an African, and brought back the T-shirt. You think I am ignorant on the subject, that my knowledge is trash....so I'd better check with you to make sure what I say is right.

    ****
    I wasn't focused on you in that way, it didn't make a bit of sense why you were getting that emotionally and ego centered in your response or why on earth you were focusing so much on

    I focused on you, as you seem to focus on trashing my thoughts and knowledge.

    ****
    Then finally you want to buy me a ticket to Africa. Sorry, but that causes me to believe that something is not right with you

    I am not going to buy you a ticket. I was making a jest. Since you liked these places, I thought you should go there now. The #1 place on your list is someplace I’d go. It was a joke that we’d go together. I’m sure you’d shudder at sharing a room with childish me. I might wet the bed (a joke).

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Layla, I am interested on why your husband left Africa? Since this is a topic about immigration. Did he choose the US, and why?

    Skeeter

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