I could write you up a nice 30 minute public talk outline, with a nice concluding pitch for CoC.
The other elders might not be yelling Holy Spirit, but likely some of them will be yelling 'Holy Shit'!
Jeff
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox 181 Replies latest jw friends
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Caedes
However much I disagree with the wbts, it is up to individuals to find their own way out. I agree with talking to individual witnesses about their faith and I can even understand not wanting to be entirely truthful if you are merely in it for family and friends, but there is a distinct difference in claiming to be something you are not.
Whatever good things you think you can achieve in becoming an elder will be far overshadowed by your abusing a position of trust. For some people the local congregation is their only life and the elders are the only people they really trust. It is not up to you to meddle in the lives of people who you don't really know or understand. As an example, my mother couldn't make a life for herself outside the 'truth' she is terrified of 'wordly' people. I am sure there are many other witnesses who simply couldn't cope outside.
Perhaps if you truly believed that they were just wrong on a few issues and wanted to try and encourage people to live a life more in keeping with the teachings of Jesus rather than blindly following what it says in the watchtower then I could understand it. But if you as an elder are encouraging people to leave and question their faith then that leaves you with a lot of responsibility for their future actions. Are you going to be there for every person in your congregation who is affected by your actions. Are you going to sit on JCs to disfellowship people? What about if it is your words that pushed them to that stage?
Don't do it, just say that you prayed and didn't feel that you were ready. As spiderman's dad said, 'with power comes great responsibility'
The whole idea smacks of the kind of 'theocratic warfare' that is regularly lambasted on this forum.
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Gopher
I guess we'll have to disagree Renee. In his list of things he did, there are things many elders I've known do -- like fake hours and swear a little.
Further, there is NOTHING wrong with celebrating birthdays. You may disagree, but that's a whole different topic. He comments from THE BIBLE at meetings? Gasp! Very evil!
He's been honest with his family about his doubts. He's not playing the hypocrite with them. He talks to disfellowshipped people? Gasp again. How terrible that he has human emotion and refuses to go along with the shunning rules which are nowhere in the Bible.
Look, if you want to say he's not fit to be an elder because he doesn't play by all the rules, well -- not all the elders play by all the rules anyhow. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, lots of elders view their role as a power game. I grew up JW and became a ministerial servant, and I saw the power game a LOT. If there really is "holy spirit" appointing elders, then obviously OOTB should be prevented from becoming an elder by that holy spirit. Since there is no holy spirit at work in this organization (from what I have seen), the ranks of elders really are little more than a boy's club.
As I said I've not seen any evidence that OOTB will treat people worse than elders who buy into the WTS doctrine. Disrespecting the organization is one thing, but that doesn't mean he'll disrespect people.
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The Scotsman
I have to agree with Reniaa.
Being an elder is a position of trust and it would be dishonest to take this position.
I was an elder and I can confirm that though some here suggest you "use your new power" it is simply not true. You will be able to do nothing to affect the thinking and actions of rank and file JWs - this is a mind control cult and no single person can change it.
You mention you celebrated a brithday. Consider this...An elders meeting is called to discuss that it has become known to the body of elders that someone has celebrated a birthday. You and 2 others are selected to be the Judicial committee. The person is unrepentent so YOU and the 2 others must disfellowship the person. They will lose all contact with friends and family because of this.
Now, how would you "feel" about that? Its hard I am sure you would agree.
I stepped down as an elder last year because I would be a hypocrite to continue.
If you do take the position you will become frustrated with the deep deep hypocrisy of it all.
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AK - Jeff
I'm not doing this to make a point, but because I feel genuine concern for the lad involved, I'll say lad because outofthebox sounds very young and foolish, certainly hasn't consider the consequences.
Reniaa - Obviously you object to his planned acceptance of elder-appointment. But please explain what bad consequences you expect this to produce? Do you believe he will intentionally wreck people's lives with bad advice, or what? Seems to me that likely the opposite will happen.
If I were in his shoes [and I was close to being in the identical situation at one point] I would never do anything to harm those people - though I would deviate from what the Watchtower would have me do. If a sister came to me and told me she had been raped by an elder in the congregation I would advise her to call the police first, seek counselling, and find the help she needed to deal with the matter properly. If a teen came to me and admitted that he/she was involved in masturbation, I would tell them that this is a normal thing, and to quit feeling guilty. You get the point.
What harm could come that you envision? Sure the publishers 'trust' elders. Wouldn't it be nice if we had more of the kind who actually cared enough to take truthful positions, instead 'Truth-ful' ones? And since IT is not the TRUTH, wouldn't you actually wish that your former brothers and sisters, fellow slaves to falsehood, might actually be able to discern that and get out with life to live in reality?
On the other hand, we have many elders who played this game so that they could be successful pedophiles in the congregations - NOW that would be an matter to take a righteous stand against!
Jeff
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The Scotsman
AK-Jeff
You say this - "If a sister came to me and told me she had been raped by an elder in the congregation I would advise her to call the police first, seek counselling, and find the help she needed to deal with the matter properly. If a teen came to me and admitted that he/she was involved in masturbation, I would tell them that this is a normal thing, and to quit feeling guilty. You get the point.
I can assure you that you would be removed as an elder faster than a nuns first curry if you said anything like that. Not that I disagree with what you say - you are absolutely right. But the org would not agree. Elders need to toe the line, some may be as flexible as much as they can be, but their is not much room for that.
I just think that outofthebox would totally regret taking the position. In the end I found it so frustrating.
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nomoreguilt
We have 2 sides of a fence here.........Renaia...v....OTWO
I see ONE very strong personality, a new one at that. And then we have OTWO.
Choices, choices, and more choices.
I only just saw this thread and I really have to get off to work soon. But, I do have an OPINION on the matter and I will have to wait until later to express my OPINION..
If you'll notice the CAPS on OPINION......We all have ONE, don't we?!! Just that, an OPINION..
Ah, the hell with it......More power to you OTWO....
NMG
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Caedes
AK Jeff,
I think the idea of being some undercover elder fighting for truth and justice is a nice one, but at odds with the reality of the responsibilties of being an elder. I think the bad consequences are having to sit in on JCs and having to be dishonest about your intentions. How do you counsel someone who is thinking of leaving? Do you admit that you think they would be better off leaving? How will that make the person feel if even the elder doesn't want them to stay? And if you encourage them how will that make you feel.
As far as I can see the whole thing is a minefield and is best avoided. You can't sit in judgement over people and then think you have the moral highground just for being nice and sensible, not when you are going to have to support judicial committee decisions that you have sat on.
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AK - Jeff
I can assure you that you would be removed as an elder faster than a nuns first curry if you said anything like that. Not that I disagree with what you say - you are absolutely right. But the org would not agree. Elders need to toe the line, some may be as flexible as much as they can be, but their is not much room for that.
I just think that outofthebox would totally regret taking the position. In the end I found it so frustrating.
Agreed. I have no doubt that the time would come in which he OOTB would be removed or feel a need to remove himself. But in the meantime, he might be able to actually do what we always thought elders did - help people.
I couldn't have done it - I am too straight arrow to play by any-one's games that way - but some might be able to. I mean, if the poor guy has to 'hang around' because he will lose his family if he goes - why not try and do a little good where he can? If just one victim of pedophilia is helped, then his DF'ing might be worth it. It would be to me I suppose if I had the constitution for the games.
As far as I can see the whole thing is a minefield and is best avoided. You can't sit in judgement over people and then think you have the moral highground just for being nice and sensible, not when you are going to have to support judicial committee decisions that you have sat on.
Once again - Agreed. It is a mine field. No doubt. My primary defense of his choice was a defusing of another posters' comments that harm would come to others who trusted him. I don't really see that happening if he is of good character. As far as the JC's - no way. I would never sit in judgment of others in that kangaroo courtroom - and most BOE's will excuse a brother who asks not to sit on a particular committee. Over time - they would likely insist - and that might be the time to step down.
What I am trying to say is: I agree. I would never do it. But I think it can be done by a caring and careful person. One of the key proponents of the AJWRB website, is an active member of the HLC he claims. I do not support a reform mentality - but only point to this as an example that some can pull it off - melding love and honest concern, with a sense of reality on the other side.
If he does it, it likely won't last long till he runs up against the matters that have been suggested and he has to step down.
Jeff
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dawg
So, if your family's in a burning building, do you not save them first? I would! I'd try and save anyone I could,by any means I could use, but family comes first.