burn your Ray Franz books (page 2)

edward gentry

well, ive provoked a lot of justificaion and rationalization here.
Including in myself!

Just 2 laws.
point 1
Do you know Ray personally?
If you do, I will concede that in YOUR opinion Ray is sweetheart.
If you do not know Ray personally, then you have walked into a trap saying hes a nice guy.You dont know what he is.
I hope you are not that dumb.

point 2
Do you actually suggest that Ray got into the governing body off his own bat without ANY consideration that he was related to freddy?
You might as well suggest that Michael Douglas got into movies purely off his own initiative and talent.
Angelina Jolies connection to Jon Voight counted for nothing and Cher got into movies because shes a talented actress.
They were connected to the stream, thats how they got into it.
I suggest the same thing with Ray.
We just had an election here in Oz. Theopposition leader was Kym Beazley. He didnt get into political circles because his daddy was a political Bigwig in WA did he?
Course not.
John Kennedy didnt get into the presidency because of his fathers political machine did he?

point 3
Absolute opinions?
I have non.Unlike these people I am not a channel to God.

point 4
Making a living.
Ray, I bet, gets money for publishing his opinions ( if I am wrong I conceed error)thus he is making money from his former borg slave master position.

edward gentry

Joy.
you just cant get the facts straight can you?
I didnt say Ray was a "borg mind slave".
I said Ray was "borg heirachy'
You are putting your own interp on what I say.
Just like the borg taught you to.

jst2laws

edward,
I met Ray and Cynthia for the first time over 30 years ago. Last time I spoke with them was two months ago. These are not people making anything off of anyone except a meager living doing what he can.

If I dont know someone, I am careful not to cast doubt on their motives. How about you?

Jst2laws

Liberated

Something VM44 touched on, because of the way cults operate,
controlling information and contact outside the cult, only
those who were in and got out can speak authoritatively
about what goes on.

Ray Franz said as much about publishing what he did....he
was in a unique position to share that information with
people who would have no other way of knowing. Even Ray was
not fully aware of the truth about the wts until he served
on the GB.

Perhaps some of your friend's reaction is due to the huge
disillusionment, despair, and feelings of betrayal experienced
when faced with the truth about the wts. Sometimes only anger
can ease that pain. Ray Franz was able to write about his
life-long experiences without malice or anger.

Libby

teejay

Edward,

I agree with the general point you are making. I think. I must be careful about opening my mouth, though, else risk public embarrassment. Wouldn't be the first time, though.

What I think you're saying --what I agree with -- is that it makes little sense to exchange one master for another. Do I have that right? It's a point many have made and one that makes nothing but total sense. If I learned nothing else after years of faithful service, I learned that I will never follow (blindly or otherwise) another human being for as long as I live. Others can help by dropping breadcrumbs along the way, but the ultimate choice of direction from here on out will be mine.

Your friend, the former hatchet man, sounds pathetically familiar. Like a good nazi who'd done the bidding of the Führer for years, he's changed his allegiance but not his mindset. In the wrong hands, he'd be a very dangerous man. Or, like Paul, the Roman plant that changed the course of Christianity, ergo history. First Paul murders Christians then becomes one of its staunchest defenders, publicly reproving (humiliating) one of Christ's closest disciples.

I often wonder what course Ray's life would have taken had he never left his position on the GB or been disfellowshipped.

Peace,
tj

edward gentry

just 2 laws.
Im glad youre not stupid.
There are enough mind slaves in the world.
Next time you go to visit Ray..can I come?
I want to hang off every word of wisdom that drips from the fount of experience as well.

Joy
Ive told and told you, make sure you quote people correctly and in context.Otherwise they can squirm out of it.

TJ and...sorry I forget..
Your positions are moderate and I hope you are being edified by this debate, as I am.
Currently I am going back thru this entry, altering my entry.
I learnt that from the borg.

I notice there is no response to the "bred to rulership"point I made.
Do I assume you conceed?

edward gentry

yeah. just goin back thru all the entries.

44, I agree, an excellent insight into the GB workings.
who wouldnt want to sit in on a session? I would

2 laws."cast doubt" is a very black and negative term, casting doubt on myself,are you aware how compelled you feel to justify yourself?
To justify Ray? who you love as a brother.
Its a hard impulse to resist aint it?

Richie

Tj, Raymond already left the Borg in his own way - he resigned from the GB because he could not stand the hypocrisy of the hierarchy - afterwards the Borg tried several times to get back at him because he knew the inner workings at Brooklyn headquarters. Eventually the Borg got him on a technicality (eating in a restaurant with a disassociated friend, who was also his employer) and they mercilessly disfellowshipped him.
You were making a comparison, very poorly indeed, of a nazi turned former nazi and then you state that if that person would be in the wrong hands again that he would be a dangerous person. Remember, nazis were nazis when Germany had its power...when the war was over, of course they all had to sing a different tune - but to compare this with Ray Franz? That's grossly unfair and unkind! What about the JW's who have become ex-JW's?? We all were of the same mindset, but we are not now anymore, but if I were in the wrong hands, I would NEVER have the same mindset anymore, would you now that you are NOT a witness anymore?? - the same with Ray Franz: he was never of the same mindset in the beginning (including Ed Dunlap) - only by entering the Governing Body did he begin to realize how corrupt and self-centered they were, otherwise he would have never known beforehand! Then you compare Saul of Tarsus who persecuted the Christians, then he changed to become the aposle Paul -yes the apostle Paul was a thinking man but at the same time he was loyal to the system - he changed completely and became a faithful man - would Paul have changed if he were in the wrong hands?? Of course not...so why blame Ray Franz? Check first and then speak - sometimes our minds can be a trap in that we race to conclusions and afterwards we do the thinking...Let's not be the same as the witnesses: they do because they were told to do, they think because they were told to think...

:*) Richie

edward gentry

THe apostle Paul was a fruitcake.
In my opinion.
A rabid nut.
First he was a rabid Christian hater, then he became a rabid hysterical Christian.

As for Ray Franz, yeah, he wrote about his experiences without bitterness, that was very noble of him. I thought.
It was a little sad to see him, page after page, of CofC, playing the borgs game, writing letters to HQ, trying to justify himself and his actions to them.

Thomas Poole

Those books helped me see the false prophet that I followed for 31 years.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

burn your Ray Franz books

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