Lovelylill... please explain what you think is God like wisdom that comes from this book? You said...
It is indeed an ecclectic book. But mixed into all these types of writings is an ancient wisdom that for me cannot be denied and I personally attribute this wisdom to God.
To all Bible believers... and non
by dawg 91 Replies latest jw friends
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dawg
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dawg
I've read all posts, and doomsvoyager, and Keysersoze... I agree... and thank all of you for posting.
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lovelylil
dawg,
There is a lot of great pearls of wisdom in the bible. I'll take some of the teachings of Jesus for example. Now, I will assume you are not a believer in a historical Jesus? That is fine for my purposes right now.
Even IF Jesus were a character in a story used to teach principles for us to live by, the teachings in the "stories" conveyed wisdom and truth;
Show love for all our fellowman - The parable of the Good Samaratin
Take care of those who cannot care for themselves - Jesus said the faith God accepts is that of "caring for orphans and widows"
Treat others the way you wish to be treated - The Golden rule "do unto others"
Treat others mercifully - "Go learn what this means, I want mercy and not sacrifice"
Religious legalism should not be tolerated - He told the Pharisees that "you make the laws of God invalid by your traditions"
We should seek peace with others, with the emphasis on "us', not others - "turn the other cheek" and "be peaceable with all men"
Do not judge others without knowing thier circumstances - "why do you judge your brother?" or "stop judging what is on the outside"
Love is the most important quality you can posess in this life - by this all will know you are my disciples "if you have love amongst yourselves", "love your nieghbor as yourself".
Before I ever joined a church group in my life or read the Bible, an elderly nieghbor of mine (a Christian) taught me some of these basic principles to live by. And I am glad she did because I did not have good parents to teach me things like this. Imagine my surprise when at 12, I read my first New Testament and found all these wise pearls of advice in there! As spoken by Jesus Christ.
Great peace leaders such as Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and the Dali Llama ( 2 Christian, 2 not) have all said that if everyone lived by the principles of Jesus Christ - the world would be a better more peaceful place. Even if he were not a historical person or the Son of God, which I believe he is and was both these things, but even "if" not, I would consider the teachings in the Bible to be sound, true and wise.
Like I said earlier, a story can still convey a literal truth and that truth may not be myth.
Now, I know what is coming next. For I have been down this road many times before. You will offer a rebuttal by saying that we can find words of wisdom in other Holy Books or other ancient books that are not religious ones, and I will tell you right now that I will agree with you.
But, for me having lived a great part of my life as a Christian, following the words of my choice of Holy Book, The Bible, I will not change my course in life now. Why? Because this is what works for me. It is my personal choice. It is MY choice to hold the Bible in the esteem I do and I cannot impress this view on others who do not give the Bible the same wieght.
The reason I answered this thread is to give you hopefully a more balanced view of ONE Christian who may have opinions you have not encountered before. I know my response will not convert you, but if it opens your mind just a little bit to see Christians in another "light" than I am happy with that.
Peace, Lilly
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hillary_step
Dawg,
But mixed into all these types of writings is an ancient wisdom that for me cannot be denied and I personally attribute this wisdom to God.
Why do you attribute these things to 'the wisdom of God"?
Lil,
Are the 'pearls of wisdom' of Christ greater than those of of Buddha? If so, why?
I am puzzled as to how divinity is ascribed so easily to sayings that are often clever, sometimes ridiculous, regularly boring and readily inconsistent. On that basis, I too am divine. ;)
HS
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cognizant dissident
Anyways, the bottom line is... I think it is important to use common sense and reason. To live our lives in a way that is loving, reasonable, and sound. No matter how we get from point A to point B matters to me, as long as we are good people to everyone. As long as we use sound human reason. As long as we don't use scriptures to use it against people or to act as if we are in any way better and respect others for who they are and are non-judgemental and simply loving...
The only problem with this approach is that to use the Bible as the vehicle to get from point A to point B is not reasonable or sound. There may be a few nuggets of common sense and proverbial wisdom (not unique to the Bible as Hillary pointed out). However, so much of it has been proven to be unreasonable, illogical and untrue by various sciences that we would be better off discarding the rusty, broken down vehicle all together and walking on our own two feet using only the internal compass that nature gave us to guide ourselves. Then we have a much better chance of arriving at some destination worth being at.
Sound human reasoning and the Bible are mutually exclusive. There is no group of people or set of scriptures anywhere in history that has not been used against people to judge them in an unloving way. Those who claim to use the bible in this way must be ignoring a good three quarters of its advice and just cherry picking what makes them feel warm and fuzzy. Dawg is correct. All religions are the same coat, they just come in different colors.
Cog
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AGuest
May you have peace!
Aguest, please then pray tell why did Jesus die if it wasn't a 'ransom" sacrifice for the Ademic sin?
Whoa… who disputed that?! My Lord did give his life as a ransom… where did that come up in the discussion?
Jesus himself said this was the purpose for his death... just as one man sin entered into the world…
Ummmm… Paul is actually credited with saying those words, although, my Lord did say that he came to give his life in behalf of the world. But I didn’t get that you raised THIS particular issue/question…
do I need quote the scriptures?
For this reason? No, no need, truly, as I agree that my Lord gave his life as a ransom. But again, I did not get that this was your issue.
Tell me then what was the purpose for Jesus' death?
See above.
Then you continue to say we don't understand... then please explain if you have an answer.
Well, I re-read your comments. You wrote:
Just take the whole Eve and Adam story and try to defend it…
See, I'm not seeing the matter of my Lord’s death in this…
in this myth, we have a God who tells his children not to eat a fruit, and if they eat it they will die…
This part isn't myth: God told them not to eat because ifthey ate they would die...
then he kills all subsequent children because of what his elder kids did.
Who?! The Most Holy One of Israel??! He most certainly did NOT! He didn't KILL anyone! He simply WARNED them as to what would happen IF they ate. And here's the LIE: the WTBTS teaches that (1) it was God's tree, so (2) He could restrict anyone He wanted from eating from it, and (3) so He told Adham and Eve that if they ate they would die, because (4) He would kill them. That is a LIE.
Then the story relates that a question was raised by his heavenly children…
Another lie… for there are no “heavenly” children… other than Christ and those adopted to be his “brothers.” True, some consider angels as “son of God,” but they are seriously mistaken. Truly, other than the Christ, to which of the angels did God EVER say, “You are my son?” None.
Initially, God had only two children, two sons: one by His slave wife, Hagar (Earth, representing the physical realm), who was called “Adham” (earthling man)… and one by His free wife, Sarah (Jerusalem Above, representing the spirit realm), who is called “JahEshua.” Angels, however, are not sons – they are those who MINISTER to and on behalf of the sons. They were brought into existence for that very reason.and this is the reason he wreaks all this misery in his undeserving children who did nothing at all.
Again, if you believe this you have been misled. “He” did no such thing and does no such thing. That is simply a continuation of… the LIE.
This question must be answered...
So "they" say, but you appear to agree with them...
so who does he send?
And so, you’re saying that the reason my Lord was sent… came to this realm… was to “answer” this “question.” And that’s where I took exception, because this is also a LIE. True, my Lord came to give a ransom in exchange for the lives lost by Adham, BUT… it was NOT the result of the “question” you learned from the WTBTS. And that was my point.
Not a man who was made like Adam, but by a God from the heavens… maybe God himself according to many of you on this site.
And here's where it gets confusing: are you saying that "they" say God sent, not a man like Adham, but a God from the heavens..." because, that's not what they say. Or are you saying that YOU believe He sent one who was not a man like Adham, but a God from the heavens..."
Because the TRUTH is that the One sent WAS a man like Adham, but not in the way "they" say. The TRUTH is that he was like Adham in that he was half flesh and half spirit (flesh from the earth/Mary, spirit from God), just as Adham was (flesh from the earth/Hagar, spirit from God).
If the question raised in the garden was whether humans could live perfect lives serving their creator
And here is the rub: contraty to their false teaching (which is why it cannot be supported) this was NOT the question raised in the Garden. (And if you recall, the WTBTS FIRST said that the “question” raised [by Satan] was “Jehovah’s sovereignty” (i.e., right to rule) but they changed THAT error once they couldn’t support it. Why couldn’t they support it? Because, the sovereignty of the Most Holy One of Israel has NEVER… and CAN never… be an issue. Why? Because… He IS the MOST High… and even Satan knows that. That’s why Satan ALSO entered in before Him and gave an accounting of his whereabouts. IF JAH’s sovereignty was an issue, Satan would have challenged HIM, GOD. The challenge, however… was NOT to God, NOR to Christ, NOR to Adham. The challenge… is to ME… and YOU… and it was not raised in Eden.
What WAS raised in Eden is the issue of whether, in keeping us from “knowing” bad… knowing DEATH… God was WITHHOLDING something from earthling man (adham)… something that IF man knew of it man would be LIKE God. In Eden, Satan stated that God didn’t want Adham and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad because if they did, they would be “like” God… “knowing” good AND bad. They already knew good… LIFE. They didn’t, however, “know” bad: DEATH. But this was not a question: EVERYONE knew the answer to that... except, apparently, Adham and Eve. Adham knew, however, that God had never LIED to him.
God’s directive regarding that tree was not a command; it was a WARNING. God KNEW… that if Adham and Eve ate from that tree… they would come to know not only good (life)… but BAD… death. Problem is, Adham thought that if he DID eat… he WOULD become like God… knowing good (life) AND bad (death)… and yet… LIVE. Death has no hold on God, dear Dawg, so that God… and now Christ… DO know good AND bad. Adham thought he could be just like that, however, and so CHOSE to eat... to "know" bad - death.When Adam CHOSE to “know” bad… death... however, he didn’t do it under the guise of being deceived by Satan as Eve was. Rather…. HE MADE A DEAL: he agreed that IF Death would release him, so that he indeed WOULD be “like” God (i.e., knowing both life and death and still living), he would give, in exchange, the LIVES… of HIS offspring. Why did he make this deal? Because he THOUGHT that he would be LIKE GOD… and as a result have the same POWER of God… to resurrected FROM death. Problem was, the chief AGENT of Death… SATAN… was and is a LIAR. HE knew that if Adham and Eve ate not only would they NOT be like God (i.e., knowing death but still living), but just the opposite.
BUT… there was a problem: when Adham came to “know” bad… death… he was NOT released: death kept its hold… not only on HIM… but on his OFFSPRING. The result was death… not only to Adham… but to all mankind that generated from him.
then a God from the heavens, given special healing powers, raising the dead, feeding thousands with a fish; a God man like this isn’t Adam or a human at all…
Which is another error. True, the Most Holy One of Israel is not adham or human… nor is His glorified son, now. But that Son once “emptied himself out and took a slaves form.” Thus:
“God, by sending His own Son in the likeness of SINFUL flesh… and concerning sin, CONDEMNED sin in the flesh.”Romans 8:3
Notice, it does not say that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinLESS flesh, but sinFUL flesh. Human.he’s a God and thusly doesn’t answer the question raised in the garden.
And this is another of their errors, for He did indeed answer the question raised, was, can one CHOOSE death... and LIVE? The answer? If you CHOOSE death… you WILL die... you WILL know "bad," perhaps eternally. Another question was also raised and answered, however: if one CHOOSES life can one live... FOREVER? And that answer is, yes! And it all depends on which TREE one eats from: the Tree of LIFE… Christ... so as to live... FOREVER... or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. And make NO mistake: it is NOT “the Tree of Knowledge.” It is the Tree “of the Knowledge of Good AND Bad.”
I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from: I agree with you that those who come here and bash JWs while attempting to prove biblical theories and stories that are inaccurate and untrue are no different than those they decry. I have posted that very truth time and time again. However, that you are also using false WTBTS doctrine and teachings to criticize them… is, IMHO, not much different. And that, too, is my point.
I bid you the greatest of peace.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA -
LtCmd.Lore
Great peace leaders such as Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and the Dali Llama ( 2 Christian, 2 not) have all said that if everyone lived by the principles of Jesus Christ - the world would be a better more peaceful place.
I agree completely. (Well mostly anyway, as long as everyone was intelligent enough to ingore his more asinine teachings. Which they generally do.)
But this is also true of Buddha, Joseph Smith, Odin, Yoda, Me, and Satan.
It's downright simple to come up with a philosophy that is beneficial if EVERYONE follows it. The real trick is for it to be beneficial even if you are the ONLY one following it.
In that respect, I think Buddha pwns Jesus. In fact a lot of Jesus teachings are taken from Buddhism.
Even Jesus' famous "Golden Rule" is just another average variant of the Ethic of Reciprocity that had already been around for thousands of years in almost every culture.
But I fail to see how anything any of the above people said is any indication of superhuman wisdom. It's not Godly Wisdom, it's just plain old Wisdom.
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lovelylil
Other reasons if I may add;
The Bible although written over many centuries by different writers is in complete harmony from beginning to end.
The Bible contains real prophecy that has already come true.
The advice in the bible transends time, no matter what generation you live in, the advice is practical and sound.
I used a few examples, but there are thousands of reasons I believe it is "wisdom from God". I did not really want to get into the deep stuff because if you do not believe in the Bible, it is useless to debate its merit.
Like I said, yes there are other Holy Books too (Most written AFTER the Bible) that contain wisdom. But I made a personal Choice to accept the Bible as my Holy Book. I think I made that clear that it is a personal choice what we want to accept or not.
That being said; why aren't people on this forum trying to downgrade the teachings of Budha or Ghandi, or the Dali Llama? It is interesting that the Bible and Jesus are always being questioned. Just because you had a past experience with Christianity, does not mean the Christian faith has no merit.
That is my only point, I am not trying to convert. I think I have explained my view very reasonably. Peace, Lilly
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BurnTheShips
Dearest Dawg (may you have peace)! I think I understand the point you're trying to make (hypocrisy); however, the way you're trying to make it may not be as clear as you think. For example, you ........................
Hear hear AGUEST!I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA
My thoughts parallel your own.
Burn
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LouBelle
Dawg - I don't believe the bible is a literal book and therefore don't believe in it as one reads it. For me it's more of aligory.....like interprative dance......like abstract painting: Eg the whole adam and eve myth - I don't see it as actual people but as opposites/sun/moon/spirit/flesh and a whole lot more.