that you feel we need to be "done" (and the greatest of peace to you!). If you can find it in your heart, however, to please take a few moments and read all that I have written to you here, I'd like to clarify. If you can't, then perhaps you will just scroll down to the bottom and read my summary, as it's only a few sentences.
Okay, then, you asked "why do we suffer," which question I misunderstood. I did not read that you meant "we suffer because of Adam," but literally WHY we suffer. I tried to answer that question truthfully. My sincere apologies for misunderstanding you. In response, you restated what you meant:
Adam ate a fruit and all of us suffer for it...
And my response to that was, in essence, not quite. This truly oversimplifies what occurred and why, and the result/consequence and why. This is the TRUTH. And such oversimplification... or, in some cases, overcomplication, is what leads to people being misled. I assume that when folks like you ask a question, they want the TRUTH... the WHOLE truth... and nothing BUT the truth. And I tried in all sincerity to give you that.
That was the original comment I made...
Again, my apologies, but that doesn't seem to be the case. For example, although you state in your next to last post here that:
This was the first thing I posted on this thread... "It’s a simple question; I’m just curious how you see yourselves differently than any JW in which you attack. And please, don’t insult my intellect talking about evolution, this thread isn’t about the existence of God nor the belief in Evolution, its’ about why you defend the indefensible" And yet many of you continue to talk about the belief in God or why man suffers... Lord, this is simple...I'm saying the Bible isn't the word of God and I want to know why you defend it...
When I read your opening post, however, I did not read that as your ORIGINAL comment, but the LAST of the comments in your original post. Your ORIGINAL comment indicated that Adam eating and the consequences, as you understand them, is a myth. I quote:
"Just take the whole Eve and Adam story and try to defend it… in this myth, we have a God who tells his children not to eat a fruit, and if they eat it they will die… then he kills all subsequent children because of what his elder kids did."
In response to that comment, I responded, as a NON "Bible Believer" that:
I think I understand the point you're trying to make (hypocrisy); however, the way you're trying to make it may not be as clear as you think.
In a subsequent post, I attempted to clarify, starting with your presentation of what took place in Eden. As you stated: "in this myth." And what I tried to say is that this version IS a myth, which is why folks are hard-pressed to defend it. You also wrote:
Then the story relates that a question was raised by his heavenly children and this is the reason he wreaks all this misery in his undeserving children who did nothing at all.
And my response was WHOSE "story," the WTBTS'? And, again, that this is yet another error, which is why folks are hard-pressed to defend it. You go on and write:
This question must be answered,
And again, I tried to point out the error, that this was NOT the question raised or needing to be answered (and thus, why folks are hard-pressed to defend it). You then write:
If the question raised in the garden was whether humans could live perfect lives serving their creator, then a God from the heavens, given special healing powers, raising the dead, feeding thousands with a fish; a God man like this isn’t Adam or a human at all… he’s a God and thusly doesn’t answer the question raised in the garden.
And so I tried to point out that the TRUTH is that the question raised was NOT "whether humans could live perfect lives serving their creator" and that REASON Bible defenders are in the position they're in is because they do not get the sense of my Lord's words at John 5:39, 40.
"... indeed, one should really leave off from that and follow the words of the One they CLAIM to be following by following the Bible, who said:
"You are searching the scriptures because you THINK
that by means of THEM you will have everlasting life.
And these are the very ones that bear witness about ME.
And yet, you do not want to come... to ME... that you
may HAVE life." John 5:39, 40"
But then it appears (to me, at least) that you took a turn and began to ask me as to the truth of whether sin entered the world through Adam, to which I responded that yes, but not quite as you present it. Which is the entire JIST of my response to you:
You are deriding ex-JWs for deriding JWs, when the things they believe have been disproved... yet, what YOU appear to believe is ALSO inaccurate and disproved. And so my question to you was, aren't YOU doing the same thing to those YOU are deriding? Just like JWs, these ex-JWs are conducting themselves in error: they base their beliefs on an understanding of what's in the Bible... which understanding was given them NOT by holy spirit, NOT by Christ... but by imperfect, fallible EARTHLING MAN... and particularly "false christs."
But the questions you present to me regarding Adam, eating the fruit, suffering, etc., is the SAME thing: you, too, are basing your premises and understandings on what YOU received from earthling man, as well. And just like JWs don't want to hear the truth, and ex-Jws don't want to hear the truth, you apparently don't want to hear it either. And so, my question is how can you have an issue with folks who are proceeding in the same manner as you are? That, too, is hypocrisy, is it not?
Sooo... going back to your last statement/question to me, that:
Adam ate a fruit and all of us suffer for it...
my response is that NO... all of us are NOT suffering because Adam ate a fruit. That is oversimplifying what occurred. And it is not the "bottom line," as many wish to think it is. Thus, I gave you the example of Eve: SHE "ate a fruit," too, right? Indeed, she ate it FIRST. Yet, all of us are not suffering because EVE "ate a fruit." And so, my point was that this, too, IS A MYTH... and that's why it cannot be logically defended. By the Bible or any other means. You then write:
I refuse to be sucked into all that you've written because you dance around this fact
This is an interesting comment to me: it appears that because I don't totally agree with you (or, perhaps, your bottom line), you believe me to "dancing around" some "fact." But I simply tried to answer you TRUTHFULLY, based on the FACT... that "Adam ate a fruit and all of us suffer" is NOT a fact, not entirely. That you are now wishing to end the discussion is, IMHO, not much different than the ex-JWs who refuse to discuss this subject with you at all... and JWs who refuse to discuss anything with anyone who doesn't agree with them.
and continue making comments that are way off line from the point...
But I AM on point, dear one, the point YOU raised: how can folks continue to try and use the Bible to defend things that have been disproven. My point was that they CAN'T... and why: because they receive what they know about the Bible from imperfect, infallible earthling man... who himself is "blind," instead of from the One about whom such things are ABOUT, the who, by means of holy spirit... grants EYESALVE so as to SEE what is TRUE. And thus, what these know, believe, understand and perceive... is FALSE. And you cannot defend a false premise (which is one of the reasons that the "light" of the WTBTS keeps changing).
I hope you have peace also, but your replies are only strengthening my point of contention...
Well, if you WISH your point of contention to be strengthened, it most probably won't matter what ANYONE says. If, however, you want your questions answered TRUTHFULLY, then perhaps you'll condescend to take a minute or two from this point and FULLY read what I have responded to you. Please know that this lack of wanting to read... fully... is one the reasons earthling man is often misled. Because they consider reading a "chore," they skip sentences, misread or read over words, disregard what they don't understand instead of asking/searching for clarification or, for a good many, just prefer someone else to tell them what it says. I am not knocking this entirely, as I am guilty of this, as well (I am SO tired of reading case books - I could almost scream!!).
When it is IMPORTANT to me, however, I tend to read EVERY word. No matter how small, and if it's one I don't understand, I look it up. Why? Because... supposedly... I TRULY want to know what it says and understand what it means. It's IMPORANT to me. I cannot TELL you, however, how many people think the Bible "says" such and so, and it says NO SUCH THING. Or... that it doesn't say something, when it does. I cannot tell you how many people have said to me, "I've read the entire Bible." My response would be, great... but did you truly UNDERSTAND all that you read? Or did you let what it said get lost among all of the other pre-conceived ideas already in your mind and heart? And when you needed clarification... TO WHOM DID YOU GO FOR IT? Others of earthling man... or to the SOURCE of most of what's written there?
Because... IF these had TRULY read the Bible, they would KNOW that ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE... IT IS NOT GOD'S WORD. NOWHERE... does the Bible say that it is. It DOES, however, tell us EXACTLY what (or rather, WHO), God's Word IS. And ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE... IT IS NOT WHAT WE SHOULD BE "SEARCHING." THE BIBLE... says this.
And that was another of the points I was trying to make, that those who try to defend the Bible are going to lose. Because it is indefensible, given the many versions, mistranslations, mistransliterations, tampering, etc. etc., etc. A false premise CANNOT be logically defended... and those who put their faith in the Bible... are putting their faith... in a primarily false premise.
Where they SHOULD put their faith is IN THE ONE WHOM THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT. And nothing and no other. But they don't get this because they still adhere to the Law, and/or follow those who live by the Law, and/or need to see law "written on stone tablets." This is because they have not yet had the NEW law... written ON THEIR HEARTS... by the One whom THE BIBLE says will write it... and whom THE BIBLE says... they should follow.
So, to summarize:
1. As a NON-Bible Believer, my response is that those who try to defend the Bible WILL fail because what they believe the Bible to BE... and thus, what they believe to Bible to SAY... FALSE.
2. In addition, if YOU believe false teachings and doctrines, based on what YOU believe the Bible to say (and I refer to what YOU appear to believe is the reason we suffer... "Adam ate a fruit"... then you are in the SAME position as those you are now calling to task.
Again, I bid you the GREATEST of peace, and I remain,
Your servant and a slave of Christ.
SA
