Concerning the "born again" thread

by startingover 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    How is it different in the old country? Why is it different?

    Big question...

    The short answer is: history.

    From the national or regional distribution of religion resulting from the post-Reformation settlement (cujus regio, ejus religio) Europe has followed a formally very diverse (from the violent separation of Church and State in France to a smoother evolution of traditional institutions in England or Germany) but steady course of secularisation ever since the Enlightenment. America has built its own type of "secularisation" on the "freedom" of religious and sectarian communities under a unifying discourse of rational Deism, which rather recently turned into transconfessional Theism...

    The bottom line is that, here, religion is really a private matter and people are not expected to pose as "believers" in public space. In such a context a strong religious commitment is rather the exception than the rule, requiring genuine conviction, and the high level of atheism and agnosticism simply reflects the majority's lack of such conviction in the absence of social constraint. Weren't people expected to declare themselves "believers" in America it would not be so different, I suppose.

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    You're dogs breath smells like dog balls... now how do you know what dogs balls smells like?

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    That makes sense! You are one of the good ones Nark! I really enjoy your posts!

    Burn

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR
    I've heard this mentioned before, and I really have a problem with that kind of thinking. Those of you who are so sure about your Jesus that you can't begin to imagine that some of us left the JW's after realizing we'd been conned, looked into the basis for Christianity and decided it was all flawed. In my case it had nothing to do with being bitter and I know I am not alone. I have absolutely no need to believe in God, and I am in fact sorry that many of you out there need it for a crutch.

    Can't you feel the love? Oh wait, I forget, it's not about being an atheist, but an anti-theist. What I find most ironic is that these same anti-theists are the first and loudest to howl about being proselyted. Funny how they never seem to abide by their own standards.

    Anyway, just because the JW's are screwed up does not mean that I have to toss Christianity.

  • darkuncle29
    darkuncle29
    From the national or regional distribution of religion resulting from the post-Reformation settlement (cujus regio, ejus religio) Europe has followed a formally very diverse (from the violent separation of Church and State in France to a smoother evolution of traditional institutions in England or Germany) but steady course of secularisation ever since the Enlightenment. America has built its own type of "secularisation" on the "freedom" of religious and sectarian communities under a unifying discourse of rational Deism, which rather recently turned into transconfessional Theism...

    This was interesting.

    The bottom line is that, here, religion is really a private matter and people are not expected to pose as "believers" in public space. In such a context a strong religious commitment is rather the exception than the rule, requiring genuine conviction, and the high level of atheism and agnosticism simply reflects the majority's lack of such conviction in the absence of social constraint. Weren't people expected to declare themselves "believers" in America it would not be so different, I suppose.

    I really like this comment, especially the last part. Expectations and appearances: are we really a bunch of codependant hypocrites?

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    I know some of the folks here have become atheists because of the negative effects of the cult, and to me that is the worst damage of all.

    I'm agnostic, maybe a weak atheist. It has nothing to do with the negative effects of the cult. I left in 83.

    Then I read the bible cover to cover 5 times, then my eyes were open and I got to my current state.

  • bigmouth
    bigmouth

    . "I have absolutely no need to believe in God, and I am in fact sorry that many of you out there need it for a crutch." - startingover

    "On this site those that have lost all religious belief have cajoled, ridiculed and generally called those that have retained belief deluded fools. The general undercurrent on this forum for a long time has been "how could you be so stupid to believe in God after getting bamboozled by the JWs?" " - burntheships

    Startingover, I think your wording was a bit inflammatory. But I think your preceding comments were about right.

    Burntheships, you've made a general statement that I, for one, do not believe to be correct.

    My experience has been that most here are quite moderate toward those who believe differently.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr
    In such a context a strong religious commitment is rather the exception than the rule, requiring genuine conviction, and the high level of atheism and agnosticism simply reflects the majority's lack of such conviction in the absence of social constraint. Weren't people expected to declare themselves "believers" in America it would not be so different, I suppose.

    I firmly agree with Narkissos. History is a determining factor as to the different development of secularisation in continental Europe when compared to the Anglo-American axis. Besides, most Americans fail to see the difference between American and European 'atheists'. In Belgium a minority of young people still believe in a personal God or cling to any major belief system, but at the same time they never call themselves atheists or even agnostics, neither do they expect everybody around them to deny God's existence. An important fact in the light of this thread is that they don't become unbelievers because of embittered feelings towards any suppressive authoritarian clerical system, they just don't believe, which isn't considered something negative, something you lose. As Narkissos rightly pointed out, there are no strong religious commitments, and I'd like to add there are none on both sides. So from an American perspective it may be attractive to classify countries like France and Belgium under the 'atheist' banner, but to my opinion, there is no strong commitment to atheism as such.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    This grates me as well; the notion that "they became so angry at God, they rejected him altogether". But I guess saying that religion and faith is a 'crutch' is just as grating to those who believe.

    I think we talk 'across' each other, because we live in "different universes". Believers live in a universe where God exists as a fact; atheists live in a universe where a god either does not exist at all, or is very good at hiding. Atheists don't go "Oh, I know there's a God, I just decide not to acknowledge his existence, 'cause I'm so mad at him". It just doesn't work that way.

    Do most people who leave the JWs lose faith altogether? Perhaps, I don't have the numbers. Is it because they became 'angry at God'? I don't think so, in most cases.

    Why would many ex-JWs become atheists simply because JWs were wrong?

    Well, there is of course the matter of praying to Jehovah and actually believing in him and then finding out it's not true, but aside from that, I'd think most people would then try to find out where God actually is and not reject a God altogether.

    But - JWs are a very strict, cult-like organization. When people are set free, they are more likely to wish to find answers from the other side of the argument. They've already heard the creationist side. Now they want to look into the evolution side. They've heard the Bible apologetic side (prophecies come true, inerrancy, etc.), now they'd like to research the other viewpoints.

    For me, when I saw how the Watchtower mis-quoted scientists to bend their statements into looking like they supported the JW view, I wanted to look into what scientists actually said. I still wasn't ready to accept evolution, so I went to sites like Answers in Genesis etc. at first, when science said things I didn't want to believe. After a while though, I found that other creationist sources were no better than the WT. They lie, distort, misunderstand, misrepresent, etc. etc. in an effort to find 'evidence' of special creation (and regularly also of a global flood).

    I found that properly understood, evolutionary theory makes sense. That in itself does not preclude a Creator though, but it was a starting point, and it does preclude a literal reading of Genesis. I then looked into the Bible.

    Since creationist apologists had been so dishonest in their arguments, I decided to look into the Bible from a critical, skeptical point of view as well (having been brought up on the apologist side). And I found that you can't call the Bible the inerrant word of God unless you distort and twist it in a way that would make Lord of the Rings become a literal fact of history as well if treated the same way. Sure, the Bible has some actual historical parts in it, some nice poetry, some good advice etc., but that's pretty much it.

    I looked into cosmology, geology, anthropology, archeology, biology (have a lot more to read, though!), and found explanations that were natural for the things we see in the universe. I also found that there was room for not having the answers at this point. That further study could reveal it, and it wouldn't be the end of the world not to know right now. As a JW you have "all the answers" (or so they think).

    Meanwhile, God got less and less to do. Eventually he was all but out of work as I saw it. He could still exist by all means, but it would have to be outside of our universe, and in a capacity that - when combined with my own personal experience - did not directly affect us humans. That's deism though, and pretty much any God mankind have prayed to could fit the bill (if that God had stopped responding some time ago). What God should one choose?

    I looked into logic; arguments for and against God. Or rather; for and against a personal, interfering, all present God.

    Combined with my own personal spiritual experience (or lack thereof), I came to the conclusion that without further proof, I could not believe in God, and especially not a specific God of any of the religions.

    Can it change?

    Sure - I'm open for it. Some Christians - on this forum there are a few of them - has simply decided to treat those Biblical passages and books that go against modern scientific discoveries as poetry, allegory, non-literal stories to tell an underlying point. Or; once true, but exaggerated and blown out of proportion over time. That God's Word is still in there somewhere. I guess I could do the same.

    There's just a strangeness to this God who has done little else than perhaps start it all, and who - when deciding to speak to mankind - decides to let fallible men write down his words, but in a way that - if you critically look at the sources - makes it a big jigsaw puzzle with the pieces jumbled around and put together again carefully by other men in an effort to make it all fit together, but ultimately becoming a little jumbled anyway, and ripe for misunderstandings and various interpretations.

    I see an awe inspiring greatness in nature, in life, in music and in love that perhaps some would collectively call 'God', but I don't see the personal Creator God of the Bible or any religion at this point.

    And it's not because I'm angry with God.

  • dawg
    dawg

    I've been trying... again I use the word "trying" to understand why those who still believe in a book that has been proven wrong, to not sound like an ass when talking to them, but (I bet you believers knew there'd be a but on this) every time I talk to a believer,show them the logic behind why we don't believe they throw out some cockamamie flawed response that usually doesn't answer the question being asked or is evasive. Or it's just that I "don't have God's spirit" and the like; what an insult!

    Then we have the typical response they always give that I'm just not understanding what the Bible really means... like when it says that God sanctioned child killing, that our understanding of God has changed or the like. Even to the point that my good friend Snowbird, who I have a great deal of affection for even though she believes that God needed Israel to be mercenaries, condones the evil mentioned in the Bible... these comments I'm making here aren't "straw man" fallacies, they're what I've seen posted.

    Then the final insult,when they say, "you're just mad about the JW's that's why you don't believe"... Like I'm some enraged idiot that really believes in the Bible on the inside but just don't want to come clean. It's like you show proof, absolute proof that the Bible's rubbish and that's the answer... it becomes annoying.

    I like a lot of these people, but they are defiantly delusional... I'm sorry for the insult but it's true. And I can bet you a million they'd fight another faith to the core if a believer came to the table with such rubbish and said the same arguments to them.

    Lastly, the belief in God has noting to do with the Bible... they are two different subjects, Christians always get this wrong. I'm sorry my Christian friends, but all of this combined has convinced me you need to change medications. You're arguments here on this forum have only strengthened the proof that the Bible is absolute hogwash.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit