by aud8 45 Replies latest jw experiences
You Know-it-All said:
Hitler no doubt killed thousands of sweet old Jewish ladies. Stalin starved millions of Ukranian peasants. Why do you assume that YOU are so special? Jehovah's pre-recorded judgments are that this system meet up with it's day of justice.So Hitler, Stalin and Jehovah? Hmm...
--
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire
Yes, current events scare me. They are forcing me at last to grow up and realize for sure that the world is not a make believe place to my liking.
It is a jungle of trillions of living entities fighting to survive, provide themselves comfort and expand their territories.
Life is a fight and fighting produces harm and death.
Life will not continue on forever as we might be comfortable with. The struggle for survival will invoke change constantly.
Indeed, in spite of the Watchtower's teachings that the last 100 years were filled with doom and gloom, I think over the long haul they might be found to be some of the most peaceful 100 years in all of human history for the average person. Certainly that has been true of the last 55.
We got lulled into thinking that's the way life is, but its not, in general. It is much more common for things to be a struggle than for them to be easy.
We have started on a new period of struggle which especially for those of my generation is a change. Change produces uncertainty and with it fear.
Joel
Joel,
My thoughts are very similar. When discussing current events with my brother he suggested that things were going downhill. My thoughts were that the way things were for at least our lifetimes was not really normal, but surprisingly peaceful. To me it seems that the events are not really any worse than anything before (human history in general), but just a correction to how things usually are for the human race and life in general - a struggle. Maybe someday peaceful times will come again. It seems to me that peace is the exception and not the rule in human history, and even in the history of all living things.
We have started on a new period of struggle which especially for those of my generation is a change. Change produces uncertainty and with it fear....and with fear comes suff....er...ing... (I thought that last part of your post sounded like Yoda. :)
rem
"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
You Know claimed:
The Watchtower doesn't teach that God personally kills 99.9% of mankind. That is a lie.
An interesting assertion. Does it stand up to scrutiny?
Here is a quotation from the October 15, 1958 Watchtower article "What Will Armageddon Mean for You?" Following a paragraph that claims Jehovah's Witnesses will be spared, it says:
On Satan's side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God.-1 John 5:19; Jas. 4:4.
So, according to the Watchtower, 99.9 percent of earth's population WILL die. And by whose hand? Let the Watchtower speak again with its characteristic eloquence:
God's Word likens Armageddon to the Flood, to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the battle at Gibeon, where God rained down great blocks of ice upon his enemies. Armageddon will be the worst thing ever to hit this earth in the history of man. It will be marked by shocking surprise, consternation, fright, collapse of government, tremendous upheavals of earth, landslides, cloudbursts, overflowing flash-floods, rain of corrosive liquid fire and terror in the air, on land and in the sea. No wonder that "the slain of Jehovah shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground."-Jer. 25:33, AS.
Landslides, cloudbursts, flash-floods...hmmmmm. Does that sound like wicked humans slaying one another under demonic influence, or does that sound like God using natural forces to do the deed himself?
It's too bad You Know knows less about what the Watchtower teaches than the "apostates" he disparages.
comment
This caught my eye.
Hitler no doubt killed thousands of sweet old Jewish ladies. Stalin starved millions of Ukranian peasants. Why do you assume that YOU are so special? Jehovah's pre-recorded judgments are that this system meet up with it's day of justice.Nope, I don't think I am special at all. With you catagorizing him with Hitler and Stalin, apparently, neither is Jehovah.
Andee
Just read funkydereks post. Great minds think alike, eh?
That's hard to believe. I think you lying.
Well, then we're even, because I think you're lying about being a JW in good standing, an issue which I will address in a separate thread.
Can you point to any apostate JWs that post on this board whom you would consider to be God fearing and who don't mock and ridicule his determination to bring about a judgment upon this system of things?Well, I don't know many of the people who post here personally, so I can't express an opinion about them. I do know Doctor Bob, and I'd be willing to vouch for his genuine Christianity. I may know some others, too, but I'm not sure which screen name matches which person, so I can't say much. I do know a few dozen ex-JWs, "apostates" by Watchtower definition, who are much more God-fearing than any JW I ever knew, but who do not, to my knowledge, post here (no, YK, all ex-jw's do not post on this board). As far as saying that we "mock and ridicule [God's] determination to bring about a judgment upon this system of things," many of us here do not mock God's determination, but do mock and ridicule the interminable string of false prophecies that has issued from the Watchtower. Now, I understand that to you as a JW, mocking the Watchtower is the same thing as mocking God, but that is only because you are a worshipper of an organization, and not of God.
Apostate JWs are unquestionably some of the stupidest people on the planet. In fact, I would say that they are THE stupidest. That's because most people are largely ignorant of the Bible and what it says, not so apostate JWs. They have been given a vastly superior education in the ScripturesSorry. Wrong. JW's have not been educated in the scriptures at all. They have been educated in Watchtower interpretations of the scriptures, using the Bible like a dictionary to look up 'proof texts' often taken out of context. As I have pointed out in another thread, if the Bible says "A" and the Watchtower says that it means "A+B+C," JW's consider all three to be "scriptural," because in the JW mind there is really no distinction in authority between the scripture and the Watchtower.
As far as apostates being stupid, I'll quote Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does." Former JW's who have exercised their brains to see through the lies, hypocrisy and false prophecies of the Watchtower are showing far less evidence of stupidity than 'loyal' JW's who mindlessly swallow every word that issues forth from Brooklyn.
The Watchtower doesn't teach that God personally kills 99.9% of mankind. That is a lie. The Bible of course teaches no such thing either, as you well know. What the Watchtower teaches is that it is God's judgment for this world to meet up with a great tribulation. The tribulation is brought about by the demons who use the governments to launch a genocidal holocaust that will annihilate a large percentage of the population along with all religions. The Romans demonstrated on a small scale how the tribulation will be brought about by human agencies. Jehovah simply allows human governements to serve as executioners of his judgments. The modern day tribulation will be brought about when the king of the north launches into a great rage and goes forth to annihilate many peoples. Jehovah's angels do intervenve at some point but evidently that is only to execute the executioner. And Jehovah promises salvation to all of those who call upon his name in trueness.So rather than address my point, regarding the Watchtower's "petty and vindictive god will destroy eternally 99.9% of the human race for not recognizing "his" organization despite its lies, false prophecies and unloving practices," you choose to nit-pick about who actually does the destroying. Following your logic, JW's should call Jesus Christ the Creator rather than Jehovah, because, according to Watchtower theology, Jehovah did not personally create all things, but used Jesus as an agent. My point was not whether Jehovah necessarily personally and directly destroys anyone, but that, according to Watchtower teaching, he will be responsible for the destruction of 99.9% of the human race simply because they did not recognize his organization, in spite of all the evidence that it could not be God's organization. But it's much easier for you to nit-pick a non-issue than to try to justify the bloodthirstiness of the god you serve, isn't it?
You are a madman indeed. Your petty self-righteous judgmental opinions about by faithfulness and integrity are no concern to me. Paul said that human tribunals were a trivial thing to him. They are to me too. For your info: The elders and my CO know what I do. So does the Society. I live by the knowledge that I will stand and fall before Jehovah. He is my judge.Always easier to call names than to prove your point, eh, YK? I admire the attitude you express in the above quote, though (well, except for the personal insult). Too bad the organization in which you profess membership would classify you as an apostate, based upon statements just such as the one above, in which you deny their authority over you. As I said above, I will address the issue of whether you are really a JW in a separate thread, but I may not have time to complete that today. Some of us do have lives outside of this board...
Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan
Well I suppose that I am one of those stupid apostates as well. The elders tell me I am so therefore it must be true. The statement that I made about my "worldly" friends being much more loving then my "witness" friends was enough to get me branded as such...so I say So be it!!! I know for a fact that Jehovah and Jesus are not that sort of vendictive beings. I know for a fact that I love them and I would never spit in their faces unlike the WTBTS. I am not the one turning my back on God's love. The organization is. If they are so divinely inspired then why are new "sheep" told to disregard any publications over 20 years old as they are "outdated". Why do they have to republish completely new versions of their books every few years to make revisions (example, family book, truth book and the list goes on). Does Jehovah continually reprint the bible to make revisions NO because he is unchanging...therefore if he chose to have an organized religion on earth it would be unchanging as well. JW's are not a religion that has been around for 150 years, their teachings, philosophies and beliefs have been reinvented by men over and over and essentially only the documentation from the last 10 - 15 years is to be considered.
Certainly they have maintained their teachings of Armaggedon and the great crowd (at least to some extent from 1935 - then before that I suppose Jehovah forgot to mention about the millions of people that would follow him so he is making a paradise exclusively for them). So with that I can understand the uneasiness some former JW's may feel with current world conditions. My parents never cease to tell me EXACTLY how the world events are fitting into Jehovah's master plan. Just like JF Rutherford in 1940 stating that there would be no other assemblies as god's day would happen within that year. Well a whole generation has passed since that speech.
But I do believe there will be a day of reckoning, as it were, the bible points to such a judgment day, a day of divine retribution but the bible also states there is a way for safety. It does not say we need to be part of an organization or religion it simply says "call on the name of God". I believe that is all anyone will need to do, whether they call god Budda, Allah, Jesus, Lord, God or even Jehovah. Certainly the WTBTS says there is way more to it then that.....but keeping the bible pure it says...."ANYONE who calls on the name of god will be saved"
So whether that day be tomorrow or 1000 years from now people who fear and love god will be saved (even us stupid apostates). God is love and I certainly believe there may even be some sincere JW's among those he will help. Remember Christ died not just for JW's sins but for the whole worlds so it doesn't need to be a complete devastation like Noah's day or Sodom and Gomorrah...
There are 2 commandments - love God and love your neighbor....if it was imperative that you get in 12.5 hours of service per week and attend at least 87.9% of all meetings don't you think Jesus would have let us in on that?
Javagal
You Know,you just don`t get it do you?It`s not God we dislike,it`s ASSHOLES LIKE YOU we dislike!!!...OUTLAW
They imagine that there will be no day of accounting from the hand of Jehovah
One thing we all know for certain: it won't be in October of 2001.
What a laugh. You are ridiculous in the extreme.
Ridiculous... oh, that reminds me! What's that date, again?
COMF
I'm sad to see that JW's give a wrong imperfect impression of Jehovah.
Here are some great passages from the PASTOR RUSSELL’s ‘The Photodrama’. They are written in a different more simple language than his Studies in The Scriptures, to communicate a simple message, I have transalated some of it into English from my foreign tongue (not 100% worked through so forgive spellerrors or wrong ways of expression) and added additional verses;
A MESSAGE OF GREAT JOY:
It's only by seeing the child of Bethlehem in relation to Logos, by whom all is that we can see Jesus in the right light. His life didn’t origin from Adam through Josef, his birthrights wasn’t ruined like Adam’s children. His life was brought into the world. Logos, rich and glorious in his spiritual being, became poor for our sake, became the man Jesus Christ, so that we through his poverty should be rich, so that that all men should be rich, the deathsentence (from our ancestor Adam) and all it resulted in form of sorrow, pain and alienation towards God. ‘A body you prepared for me, for the suffering of death’. The death of an innocent was necessary as a ransom for Adam and his kind.
1 Timothy|2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Timothy|2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in
due time.
Isaiah|53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows,
and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him;
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah|53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our
sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah|53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was
bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon
him; and with his stripes we are healed.
No wonder that the angels rejoiced in announcing the gospel of Logos turned into flesh to the shepherds, the child of Bethlehem;
Luke|2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I
bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luke|2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a
Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luke|2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the
babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luke|2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the
heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luke|2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good
will toward men.
Only few have understood how far reaching this gospel is and only few have had opportunity to have share in this great joy. But our Saviour has promised that he will be the true light to all ever borned.
The Saviour is a lifesaver. The right to life has been wasted, all are dying. The Lifesaver came to the world to give life to all men.
Hebrews|7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an
unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews|7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the
uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make
intercession for them.
Hebrews|7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy,
harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the
heavens;
Hebrews|7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer
up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for
this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Let us give thanks to God providing the Lifesaver!
The prophecy of the Lifesaver has not yet been fully fulfilled. The birth of the child was the first step, the death on the cross the next, then Logos glorious resurrection and exaltation into divine nature another, the call to priesthood or sainthood the bride of Christ that soon will soon be to end and finally the coming Messianic kingdom. It will be the final fulfilment of this glorious prophecy.
(REV B’S ADDITION):
Before his death on the cross he prayed to his father, to the saints, not the rest of the world whom his death insured deliverance from the 1st death and the resurrection thereby;
John|17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to
heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy
Son also may glorify thee:
John|17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he
should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John|17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the
only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John|17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the
work which thou gavest me to do.
John|17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Mankind is assured from deliverance of first death;
John|5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and
now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they
that hear shall live.
John|5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given
to the Son to have life in himself;
John|5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also,
because he is the Son of man.
John|5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which
all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John|5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of judgment.
John|11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the
life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John|11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never
die. Believest thou this?
Romans 11:32For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
John|1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1 John|2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John|2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans|5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1st Timothy: 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Titus: 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works
(PASTOR RUSSELL FURTHER):
THE DESTRUCTION OF SODOMA:
The Sodomites lived in a rich valley and by that, they avoided some of the curses God gave man after Adam’s fall:
Ezekiel|16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom,
pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in
her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and
needy.
Ezekiel|16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination
before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
(REV B’S ADDITION):
So is God’s high morals;
Exodus|22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
Exodus|22:23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all
unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
Exodus|22:24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with
the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children
fatherless.
(PASTOR RUSSELL FURTHER):
God set the destruction of the Sodomites as an example of the faith of sinners, death not eternal torture, as Jesus says;
Luke|17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
The Bible teaches that God’s mercy in Christ also reaches out to the Sodomites although they were very sinful. The prophet Ezekiel and Jesus himself, teaches that when he returns to the earth, he will provide a judgment for the whole world, who haven’t in this life received a full opportunity, even the Sodomites to be able to rejoice in God’s mercy.
Luke|10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
Luke|10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
The prophecy in Ezekiel 16:49-61 is very clear. It speak of a restoration and blessing coming time for God’s Israel who will also benefit the dead Sodomites in the Messianic kingdom.
Ezekiel|16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall
return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall
return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Ezekiel|16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou
shalt know that I am the LORD:
(REV B’S ADDITION):
Other places in the OT scriptures we see the same turning of faiths from Sheol (not lake of fire) to judgment:
Jeremiah|49:37 For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their
enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil
upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the
sword after them, till I have consumed them:
Jeremiah|49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy
from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah|49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that
I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.
(PASTOR RUSSELL FURTHER):
THE FATE OF THE AMALECHITES:
It seems as King Saul (first king of the Israliets) never obeyed the instructions of the Lord fully. He always followed his own wishes and even when direct orders from the Lord was given through the prophet Samuel he didn’t fully obey and had to be rebuked. When Saul was ordered to kill all the Amalechites, a people very hostile to the Israliets, he didn’t obey fully. He spared some of them, for instance their king. Many have thought it was strange that God gave such orders. The most sufficient explanation for this is that the whole world in under the deathsentence, all will die of one reason or another. The evilness of the Amalechites had reached is highest and now their sentence was elimination.
If these people, as we once thought, went to eternal torture, this would have been utterly horible. But the case if very different when we discover that God, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, has provided a resurrection of both Amalechites and Sodomites, they will return to their former state. So will all people in the Messianic Kingdom.
We see other examples of eliminatio:
2 Kings|19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the
LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred
fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning,
behold, they were all dead corpses.
2 Kings|19:36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.
Very wrong understandings of the character of God and the biblical teachings evoked in the dark ages where the bible wasn’t known by most men. A bible at that time was something extremely costly and many couldn’t read either. They didn’t understand that to worship a god that had prepared eternal torment to his creation would just be a another form of Moloch worship, which were condemned by God.
(REV B’S ADDITION):
Deuteronomy|12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for
every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto
their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in
the fire to their gods.
2 Kings|17:16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their
God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove,
and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
2 Kings|17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to
pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold
themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to
anger.
2 Kings|17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and
removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of
Judah only.
Psalms|106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters
unto devils,
Psalms|106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their
sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of
Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Psalms|106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went
a whoring with their own inventions.
Psalms|106:40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against
his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Jeremiah|7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which
is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their
daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it
into my heart.
(PASTOR RUSSELL FURTHER):
The light from the coming morning shows us that God’s character is love and rightiousness. To us, the Bible becomes understandable and its teachings harmonic.
(REV B’S ADDITIONS)
1 John|4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Proverbs|4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light,
that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Psalms|119:153 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do
not forget thy law.
Psalms|119:154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according
to thy word.
Psalms|119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek
not thy statutes.
Psalms|119:156 Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me
according to thy judgments.
Psalms|119:157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do
I not decline from thy testimonies.
Psalms|119:158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because
they kept not thy word.
Psalms|119:159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O
LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.
Psalms|119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every
one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
MAY JEHOVAH KEEP AND PROTECT YOU
