What Does An Ultimately Cruel Universe Reveal About God?

by hamilcarr 88 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sad emo

  Hi Gopher

  So you say mankind's abandonment by God is a sign he's letting us stand on our own feet, independently of him? That's interesting.

  In a way, yes - although I wouldn't call it abandonment - when I moved out of my parents house and into a place of my own, they hadn't abandoned me - it was more a case of "over to you and good luck, we're here for support if you need us" (NB - NOT 'we're here to bail you out every time you screw up'!!)

  So then, would prayer be out of scope now -- because God wants us to be on our own? What about the Bible verses that emphasize leaning on him, praying to him, not making a decision without considering/consulting him?

  1. I don't depend that much on prayer - what is prayer anyway?! For me, it's communication, yes I can ask for stuff but I'm not always going to get it, and I don't know why at the time, and yes that pees me off! - But I wouldn't expect a loving parent to give me everything I ask for, that would make me a spoilt brat unable to look after myself (and God would be a sky daddy, which I already said is not my view of Him). This is where I merge slightly with non-theistic views - often we have the ability to answer our own prayers, be that on individual or collective basis - for example, there IS enough food on this planet to feed everyone - and yet we say why isn't God doing something about all the starving people! I believe there is already a cure for cancer - and probably many other diseases - but corporate greed is getting in the way.

  2. Whether we like it or not we have to reap consequences too of our mistakes - there are large areas of desert today because humans in the past cut down all the trees (amongst other things!). Antibiotic resistant bacteria are flourishing because we have been careless about antibiotic use. So true when you realy think about it are the sayings that we reap what we sow, and the sins of the fathers are visited upon the next generations...

  3. The same goes for making decisions - if we're independent, we ultimately make our own. I might ask God for guidance but He doesn't (usually!) decide for me (in saying this, we'll just have to agree - I sense His presence and you don't, run with me!)

  Finally, I doubt whether anyone could ever adequately address the original question - there are natural phenomena which cause great suffering such as earthquakes, volcanoes etc - and yet if these occurences were not in place, this planet could not exist as it is - so what would we rather have in it's place? Nothing at all maybe?

  "Absurd!" says Qohelet "Everything is utterly absurd!"
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  Sad emo

  I see this thread has really kicked off while I was writing my reply lol!
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  5go

  See why we don't believe perry you even contradict yourself.

  In one post mankind is god's enemy. ( which includes you BTW )

  In another you say he loves his enemies. ( which means mankind )

  In another mankind deserves the wraith of god's non involvement in it's affairs. ( Which is proof that he doesn't exist in the way bible says he exist. Which is god isn't active in mankinds affairs like the bible says. )

  You have proven you have no logical deduction ability what so ever. Yet you tell others they have no logic to stand on. Talk about the blind trying to lead the blind.
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  Perry

  the wraith of god's non involvement in it's affairs.

  Yes, if we could just stop God's non-involvement.

  Carbon credits anyone?
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  Gopher

  Perry,

  So you know fundamental truths that are not in the Bible about mankind and God? How do you know mankind is under a curse? How do you know we are or are not God's children?

  And if the modern day Bible translations are so flawed, why do you even quote from Romans 8 and Ephesians 4 to try to prove your point?

  But looking at Romans 8:20, which to you is a proof text that mankind is vain, but look in context at the very next verse - 8:21, and it says that God will take action to be delivered from corruption into freedom of children of God. So how can you say mankind is God's enemy, if God promises to deliver them?

  And Ephesians 4 -- which is another proof text you use that mankind is vain, this verse seems to be aimed at vain people (certain Gentiles), but that verse doesn't lump true believers in with the vain ones.

  Neither scripture would seem to prove that all mankind is vain. And I thought the "vanity" meant here was not self-centeredness but rather a lack of purpose.

  Then you said this:

  ....lay hold of such statements and in their vanity assume that the term "God's children" is talking about them.... when in fact it most likely is not.

  Even atheists do that all the time on this board and it just baffles the heck out of me. I mean if I don't believe God exists, why would I care if he's a mean sky daddy or not? The answer is obvious of course....their vanity.

  I really don't know what the hell you're talking about here (atheists do "what" all the time on this board?). Maybe you could be more specific. If you are claiming atheists such as I am are self-centered, that's using a broad brush to slander an entire group of people, and you have no idea what you're talking about. An atheist merely doesn't see enough proof of a living, personal God. That does not necessarily (or even probably) make him or her self-centered or uncaring.

  So I don't believe God exists, but does that mean I am shut out from any conversation about what people say about this God-character? I do care to an extent, because often people act like their God. If they worship a cruel God, they are likely to foist cruelty upon humanity. Look at the inquisition, or the recent jihadism, for perfect examples of why I do care and try to understand the motives of believers in cruel gods.
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  Octarine Prince

  I see it all, now!:
  Earth is a big-ass ant farm
  in the Divine's eyes.
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  Octarine Prince

  The Moon is weeping,
  while most dear Children are sleeping.
  Some sleep more soundly,
  because of what they are reaping.
  
  Other children toss and turn, most perturbed;
  another fitful night’s slumber has been disturbed;
  
  Anxiety
  over insidious day’s deeds:
  Evil desires and intentions, they did run uncurbed.
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  JCanon

  If we were to simply this, I think the Biblical position is that:

  1) Pain and suffering are TEMPORARY, but

  2) Worth it, much as a woman goes through the agony of giving birth but that pain is forgotten when she sees her new baby.

  So the pain and suffering are the "birth pangs" entured for an ultimate world where there is no pain and suffering. The flaw in some arguments about God creating a world of pain and suffering is that that is not the ultimate state that will last forever.

  So to CORRECT the concept here, when one addresses god creating pain and suffering they need to use "temporary" as part of that analogy. That is: " Why did God create temporary pain and suffering?" Or "Why does God permit temporary pain and suffering?"

  Further, the Bible blames the pain and suffering on Satan and promises to rid the world of both Satan and pain and death and suffering, which was not his ORIGINAL INTENT.

  tHUS "What does an Ultimately Cruel Universe Reveal About God?" in inadquate to incompetent. It is improved by: What Does Our Current though Temporarily Ultimately Curel Universe Reveal about God?

  God is against pain and suffering and death.

  JCanon
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  Homerovah the Almighty

  What Does An Ultimately Cruel Universe Reveal About God?

  That he's an apprentice and has yet to be certified as an creator, but he is working on it
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  Homerovah the Almighty

  History has shown us that the belief in gods or a god were mainly structured and developed on the basis of human ignorance or the lack of knowledge of the world we live in.

  In a counter balance to that known ignorance, scientific discovery and established facts derived from those discoveries has swayed modern man to stop thinking that there are

  invisible but powerful spirits swarming around causing climactic damage to humans and inciting fear to the detriment to the population. It does seem to me and probably many

  others thats it's better for man to live in a world of continuing knowledge and to work with this knowledge with the intent to better the human experience. It also seems in an

  unfortunate way that religious men like the JWS. have utilized and exploited that ancient ignorance and fear to cultivate their own source of power and control, negating the advancement

  of man to better his existence along with it. So the question we have to ask are selfs would it be better to let the gods governed and control us or are we better to do it are selfs ?

  My vote is on the humans