Do You Believe in Sanctuary Cities?

by sammielee24 47 Replies latest jw friends

Layla33

Of course we can. If not on what we throw away... then certainly on what we pay farmers not to grow/raise. We could feed the world, if we put our minds to it. Of course, doing so would mean producing more, which would mean driving down costs (you know, supply and demand - the greater the supply the less the demand... therefore, the lower price... which means lower profits).
"We" can only keep the cost of food high... if we produce less of it... or throw away the excess. Which is why farmers are paid NOT to farm... and restaurants, military installations, hospitals and more, throw out their excess.
Peace.
This logic makes absolutely no sense to me. It is not the United States job to take care of every poor person on the planet and NO WE CAN'T afford to feed every person who wants it. There is a shortage going on in Los Angeles, electricity is becoming an issue, economic crisis, the schools are the worst IN THE COUNTRY, so let me just ask this one question, when is the person's country going to be held responsible?
So let's just look at Mexicans, since they make up about 70% of all illegal immigrants coming into this country. Mexico is a rich country, a corrupt country but a rich one. Why in the world aren't people picketing against Mexico and demanding their rights of Mexico? This is why I find this whole debate crocked.
I seriously do not think you know anything about the structure of a country and the economic crisis when too many people invade a country and how it reflects on the country at hand.
AGuest

I am going to say this as nicely as I possibly can, but it is too much to read your responses like you write them, and it just takes away from the overall response. I will say a few things that stick out at me.
I am very sorry. I respond as I do because I want folks to know exactly what I am responding to. Very often people post responses that have absolutely nothing to do with the statement made/question asked. Personally, I hate that.
Do you admit or even want to discuss illegal immigrants that steal people's identities and cause them harm?
Of course, I admit some illegals do that. And sure, I'll discuss that, so long as we also discuss legal immigrants... as well as regular citizens... who do the same thing. Otherwise, it would be hypocrisy, wouldn't it?
How many illegal immigrants have stolen someone's social security number and other parts of their identity and caused the life of the american citizen harm?
I truly can't say. I am sure some. But there are just as many who are now legal (who were illegal before)... and regular... who do the same. Yes? And they number even more. Yes?
What about all the rapists, the pedophiles (this I know about more than I want to comment on) that SNEAK across the border and harm children and women?
What about the ones that live right down the street? Next door? Who "legally" teach in our schools? Preach from our pulpits?
What about all the people that by your justifications don't need to check in anywhere and have free reign to harm american citizens - that's ridiculous.
What about the "all the people" who harm American citizens... who are legal... and/or regular? Again, Mohammed Atta was not illegal. And Timothy McVeigh with neither illegal nor an immigrant. Why aren't we afraid of folks like him?
How about all the drugs that illegal immigrants are trafficking?
First, I live in Oakland, CA, and so you have GOT to be kidding. It is NOT the illegal aliens I see standing on the corner "hustling." Second, I have very good friends that live in Siskiyou, Humboldt and Shasta Counties... and it ain't illegal aliens growing marijuana and manufacturing methamphetimine up there.
And if you have seen what has happened to environment and places with high trafficking illegals, you would be appalled - or maybe not.
I live within 10 miles of more than 20 oil refineries... and even more waterways. I "see" what's happening to the environment... and who's doing it.
And if you live in Oakland, then you must know about the Mexicans that are going around killing blacks without a second thought? Most of them are illegal and their plan is to exterminate blacks from Calfornia because this is their land? Do you support that? (All rheotrical at this point.)
WHAT???? What in the WORLD are you talking about? Where in the WORLD did you get that information? Girlfriend, in OAKLAND... the blacks kill the blacks, and the Mexicans kill the Mexicans. The Mexicans that are killing and being killed... aren't the "illegals." The Tongans are killing the Tongans, the Flips are killing the flips... and the white folks, well, the male criminals, anyway, are usually molesting and/or raping little boys, little girls, and co-eds. Truth.
I have read the ideology of LA RAZA
From whose viewpoint? Theirs? I don't think so. I think you have fallen prey to the same propaganda that undermined the Black Panthers. And I'm not surprised. But, just for the sake of argument, tell you what: "you all" get rid of the KKK... once and for all.. and then we can come back and talk about this. Anything else would be hypocrisy, wouldn't it?
and I have friends that live in Oakland as well, and only a few news agencies are telling the stories about all the innocent shootings to american citizens that are being done by illegals.
I LIVE in Oakland. East Oakland. In the Flatlands. If your friends are telling you about the shootings of innocent American citizens by illegals... they are lying to you. And putting totally unfounded and irrational fear in you. Tell them I said they are liars.
Sounds like you are justifying the slave class in this country. Let me be clear about something, you do not know me, I would do ANYTHING and I do mean ANYTHING to survive...
Including cross a border illegally?
I have done just about every job from the top to the bottom, including picking tomatoes for a summer job. The jobs you are referring to, have always been done in this country, even before the propaganda that you are repeating became this big push. Low skilled american citizens did the jobs you claim were not done. Hell if it pays the bills and I can take care of myself and my family, I will do ANYTHING. So don't give me that nonsense about what you know I won't do because there are a lot of american citizens with the same philosophy.
Okay, you're right... I don't know you. I DO know that today's "low-skilled" citizens aren't going to do it.
I think there needs to be a type of immigration law in place for every country.
I don't. I think people should be able to traverse the earth freely. Without borders. And that every citizen should offer a hand to every other citizen who needs it. Regardless of what "region" of the earth they hail from. I understand that there will be criminals and ne'er-do-wellers. Of course, there will be. But if there were only one government, fully united, then the WORLD would deal with such folk in a manner the WORLD sees fit.
People need to be checked for diseases that can spread to other innocent people, they need to check their criminal records, and they need to do a background check.
Indeed. But they shouldn't have to wait ten years or more for it... which it about the time it takes, now... and starve while they do.
This is a country of immigrants, people have been coming here and all over the world
It IS a country of immigrants! Indeed, it once proudly stated held up the words: "Bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free." My, how progress and prosperity has changed us!
when people disregard these laws it places communities at risk.
You are always "at risk," dear Layla. At least, most of the folks I know are. Right now, many are losing their homes. Are illegals to blame?
Name me one country that doesn't have an immigration policy?
I don't know of any, but that's not to say all have them.
There's a reason for this and if I go anywhere or want to live, I respect the laws of that country.
Again, you're kidding, right? I mean, sure, YOU, Layla, may respect the laws of that country. "We"... however, have a HISTORY... indeed, a TRACK RECORD... for disrespecting other country's laws. Indeed, "we" run all over this planet forcing OUR laws... on others.
Any community that has a large illegal immigration issue is having horrible issues - there's a reason for that.
Yes: people are angry, scared, tired, sick, etc. I can see where that would lead to having "horrible" issues. Whenever people can't sleep peacefully... there are going to be issues. And if you're a person who has to live in hiding... chances are, you aren't going to sleep peacefully.
People go to other countries all the time for medical attention and intervention, but the issue is not about that, the issue is that a very rich country like Mexico, is not being held responsible for its citizens, the demand is on the US.
Then it is the country that should be taken to task... not its people. Or did I miss something about what Iraq and Afghanistan are supposedly all about?
Anyway, I spoke my peace, and we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Or, now that you read my comments... maybe not.
By the way, paying taxes has nothing to do with being a slave.
Well, while it is true that some are slaves on a voluntary basis, taxes are not voluntary. However, one of the definitions found in Webster's for "slave" states: "one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence." I'm a thinkin' that since you ARE subservient to the IRS, a dominating influence, because if you DON'T file and perhaps pay your taxes, you WILL go to jail... most probably against your will... your are, in some sense, a slave. Your are not TRULY free. But I understand how you feel. And I have no doubt that you are one of those folks who think you SHOULD pay taxes, no matter how much "they" ask for (though you previous comment about Ted Kennedy would seem to belie that).
I am still free to think what I want and live how I want.
Ummm, again, not quite: while you may THINK what you want (and even that's questionable)... you are only free to LIVE how you want as so long as it does not go against what is acceptable to "them." IF, however, you chose to "live" in a manner that was anathema... you would not able to. I give you the FLDS (though, I don't necessarily agree with how they live!). Apparently, if you wanted to live in, say, a polygamist condition, that would probably cause you some difficulty right now. But that's just an example...
When I revolt I do so intelligently to make the largest impact.
In your opinion, perhaps...
Smart people operate beneath the radar, not drawing unnecessary attention by disrupting the system outright.
And here I go thinking Martin Luther King, Jr., was "smart," me and several other folks. Wasn't he the one who said that civil disobedience was not only right but REQUIRED... when injustice is being permitted?
Just thought I should make that clear.
All that you made clear to me, dear Layla... is that you have led a very sheltered life, one frought with the usual "they're all out to get us" irrationality. Perhaps one day you'll get out into the real world, though. If and when you do, I will certainly welcome you with open arms... and even hold your hand as we walk down the "scary" street.
I bid you a plethora of peace.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest

since they make up about 70% of all illegal immigrants coming into this country.
Okay, let's. And, as always, peace to you!
Why in the world aren't people picketing against Mexico and demanding their rights of Mexico?
Maybe it's all the AK-47s the federales keep flashing around?
I have been to Mexico City, dear Layla... and the federal government runs a tight ship. Besides the armed federales everywhere, one thing that caught our attention was the library: although this was the capitol city, there were VERY few books of American/English origin in the library, and what was there could not be checked out. When we entered we had to surrender our IDs... to armed guards. Armed guards... in a library! Why? To make sure none of the American/English books left. We went because my husband loves books and wanted to see what was there. The shelves were noticeably bare. Why? The federal government had them removed. Why? The people were getting too much "American" information. Might actually have their eyes opened and "see" something.
The citizens of Mexico protest, dear Layla. My husband and I witnessed a very peaceful one while in Mexico City a few years ago. And they have had several "revolucciones" over the years. They have "risen up" on more than one occasion. Even in our lifetime.
Again, I perceive that you have lived a VERY sheltered life, obtaining MOST of your information from unfounded and unsubstantiated statistics posted on anonymous, misinformed and propagandizing websites... and misinformed (or misintending)... friends. Get up, girl, and get out. Go SEE the world. Heck, come SEE Oakland. For yourself. You don't have to take MY word for what's really going on. I have a very lovely spare bedroom. I'll take you out and let you meet the people you are speaking about, let you see who's really killing who down here.
And THEN come back and let's you and me talk. BTW - Your name wouldn't really be Elizabeth Hasselbeck, would it? Just askin'.
Peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA
Layla33

Oh my goodness, still repeating propaganda, I see. Let me clear a few things up for you.
Number one, as you have absolutely no idea where I have actually traveled and where I have lived, let me just pinpoint your very first incorrect statement. I have lost count the number of times I have been to Oakland. I think my first time was when I was about 8 or 9. You see my step-father's sister live/d there (most last year to Arizona, I believe) and I would visit at least once every summer. My last time? Probably a year and a half ago. Boy have things changed. What I keep reading from you is the glossing over of serious issues with illegal immigration and the inferrence of side stepping the issue. Oakland is one of the most dangerous cities in the country and the education system is in shambles. Again, my step father's mother taught school there until she retired about two years ago and I have to tell you that the horror stories that the teachers go through with the huge influx of illegal immigrants in the classroom is something I am sure you will gloss over. Her husband is a physician, and again, these are people that I have stayed with, talked to, walked around the neighborhood so many times, again lost count.
I know for a fact there is an issue with illegal immigrants and blacks and I know for sure there are a lot of people writing about and doing documentaries about it. I just saw one the other day. What you will notice from me or what you should notice is that if I don't know something, have no experience with someone I don't comment on it and I will admit that I am learning. When I discuss something it is not just because I have first hand knowledge about it, but have enough documentation to back it up. I have worked not only in the research field but have published journal articles on some of the subjects we are discussing.
Move on.
Department of Health and Human Servies, well one of my closest friends works at the main office and she and I have worked on awarding grants to accomodate the discrepancies in Health Care in different communities in this country. So what I can tell you about my the statistics that I have given and the human side of the stories is that you are missing the point. And since I know just a little bit about how they gather their numbers, let's just say, we can debate the authenticity over that all day long.
What you are doing is justifying a slave class of people and you are ignoring that they need to fight for their rights in their OWN country. Demanding that another country pick up the slack of someone else is ridiculous. It's absurb. I have always believed that if so many millions are flowing in from Mexico from this country and other countries, why is our Military not fighting that invasion and the UN involved in the international abuses of Mexico. If more than 10 percent of any country is illegally entering another country, that's a problem. And even you can't name ONE COUNTRY that doesn't have an immigration policy and there's a reason for that, it's not because any country is unfeeling or cruel to humanity, it's for the protection of it's citizens and the protection of its economy. Do you have a passport? I do, and let me tell there is a reason that you need one in order to go in a country. Why do you use it? Why should a country know something about the person that is trying to enter in a country, that country has the right to decline ENTRY of anyone, be that a pedophile, a murderer, a rapist or someone smuggling drugs in the child's diaper.
Now through your rationale, you admit that illegal immigrants break laws but your rationale, which to me is hilarious is that well, American citizens break laws too. That means absolutely nothing. Someone from another country who comes into this country through criminal means, steals someone's identity and is a criminal in their country HAS NO RIGHT TO BE HERE. They are invaders and contributing to issues that ALL SOCIETIES have. A country has a right to do things for the betterment of its people. That's why we have militaries, that's why we have people in the government, although they are a crock, but the point remains the same. I see you didn't talk about those carrying diseases that put communities at risk, or those that are victims of identity theft, or the many innocent lives lost by drivers, guns, and the women that are raped by these illegal immigrants, that is people that invaded a country for the sole purpose of continuing their acts of criminality.
And like you I have ALSO BEEN TO MEXICO a few times, please do yourself a favor, stop now on that. If you want to ask a question about where I have traveled, do so, but when you write sentences on your ASSUmptions on where I have been, you look rather silly, it doesn't help your argument, which still makes no sense. As I have seen first hand the huge disrepancies in Mexico, as well as other places in this world, I do believe that these people are PAWNs and can't see they are being used by this government and there's. Mexico can spend millions of dollars for a campaign to let its people work here, but refuse to put that money into the country? Make sense? So again, the United States wasn't always so great, we fought, we battled, we bled, we died to make it a country that is livable for our citizens. And while some of us may have immigrated other places, the majority of us stayed here and changed it within.
Again, you are using a justification for a slave class, and they are being used by this country and still kept at second-class citizen status. And the 1% power hungry and greedy make their money, while the liberal pandering (and funny I consider myself liberal on some areas, but sometimes the liberal pandering) just plays right into the hands of those in control.
As I have known people who wanted to come to this country, who gave up a lot, including their chances to visit their family and friends for a long period of time, I believe there is something very wonderful about immigration, but what you and I are discussing is not about immigration, what you and I are debating is whether any person has the right to illegally enter a country and live and disregard the laws of that land. And the answer is absolutely not. So as a kind of full circle, I don't agree with sanctuary cities, as they are a band-aid for a larger issue. Once we address the murderers, rapists, drug traffickers and those that steal the identities of the american people, the break down of the education system in communities with large illegal immigration for the american citizens, there is not a single leg to stand on as far as I am concerned. And the clashes in communities because of those that illegally enter this country are well documented, so again, not one leg to stand on.
You come here legally, I will break my back to help you and have helped very many in my time, but if you break the law and you are stealing people's identities, and such, I will condemn it.
And that's all I have to say on this. Feel free to cut, paste, quote, Ad hominem, I am done with this topic.
jstalin

I think the deep-down reason for so much immigrant-hating is racism. It seems to go in cycles. 1850's was anti-chinese immigration, 1900's was anti-irish and anti-italian immigration, anti-jewish immigration, etc etc. I'm not particularly bothered by illegal immigration because I think it is a net positive effect on the ecomony. The one problem I have is free social services. I think it tends to delay integration with society. There were no free services for the immigrant populations previously mentioned, and they quickly assimilated with american society. When we give disincentives to integration (such as not having to learn the language), it prolongs the process. However, I think it is interesting to note that second and third generation hispanic immigrants tend to have very high education levels.
All in all, this situation will work itself out too. Let the anti-immigration people bluster and spew racism. People will continue to live their lives and our country will be better for it.
sammielee24

. I have a great deal of empathy for people seeking out a better life in a new country but there are a lot of issues here.
First there are those who run across the border at night - they should be sent back immediately. Employers hiring illegal aliens should be severely penalized for themselves performing illegal activities. Mexico is a very rich country and it's time that instead of supporting the country by illegal activity aka hiring illegals, the US government should force them to change the way they treat their own citizens. Heaven knows they are great at using Iraq's government and oppression of it's people as a reason to invade and occupy that country. They're pretty good at screaming human rights abuses at China but not a peep out of what happens in Mexico. In addition, not all Mexicans are poverty stricken.
Then there are the illegals that have been in this country for 5 years or so - why, instead of working and sending money back home or buying a truck, would they not have used that money to apply for residency. It costs about a thousand dollars - much less in some cases to get the process started - and I'm always unclear why they don't do this. One guy they interviewed on television has owned a flower shop and been here over 20 years and never applied - makes no sense. sammieswife.
kurtbethel

A Sanctuary city presents an interesting test environment.

There are claims that immigrants who do not go through the official paperwork are a net expense for the economy. The counter claims are that they add to the economy. A sanctuary city that attracts a concentrated number of these immigrants can be studied to see the economic impact. If these cities become bustling hotbeds of economic activity and city coffers are swelling with the resulting revenue, you will see others clamoring to be the next sanctuary, with ad campaigns promoting that "Move to Upper Downfalls, Texas, You Can't Beat our Sanctuary!"

If these cities become deficit and crime ridden cesspools, then other cities will not likely follow along with that scheme. Indeed, they will seek to encourage their immigrants to find sanctuary elsewhere.

Either case will make us have to take another look at the numbers and claims made about the immigration impact.

Then there is the law of unintended consequences. If a city can provide sanctuary arbitrarily for violators of one law, they can chose other violations the next time. The principle is set for sanctuary for tax dodgers, procrastinators, apostates, wingnuts, printers and a host of other misfits and scofflaws. This could be a selling point for communities that want to encourage growth.

"Bust a Move to Timbergulch, Oregon, where we don't ask, don't tell, and everyone is packing heat!"
sammielee24

The bottom line is simply this.
Either make a law and enforce it or else eliminate them all.
It makes absolutely NO sense to tell thousands of people to pay their $$$, fill out the forms, get a medical, stay clean and follow the letter of the law or face expulsion from this country and then tell others that 'hey..it's okay...no need for legality here'....
I paid. I'm here. No free ride but I, like thousands of other people, have to pass by others who are welcomed to the same place without hassle or legality. I think the immigration laws should either be eliminated entirely or enforced - can't have it both ways - but perhaps the whole issue should have been put to a State wide vote to allow the taxpayer in each State to determine the outcome. sammieswife.
hillbilly

thats about the only thing I've heard you say that makes sense.
We are phasing out illegals in OK... we moved em all to Texas so now they just come across the Red to work and go home at night. Maybe Texas will get the memo soon.
I want you to come if you have papers and pay taxes...it's the ILLEGAL ones that bother me. GET THAT CLEAR before the flames start.
Hill
inrainbows

It seems there is some blinkered thinking going on.
First of all, I think the fact the America has to come up with a different term for people who in Europe would either been seen as just another white person, or MAYBE, 'mediterranian' is interesting. Hispanic, Latino, whatever, it's just needless differentiation that underlines how heavily some issues in the US revolve around race. Where many Americans see a Hispanic, a European would see a European. Think about that.
Second, without illegal workers the US economy would not work. Just like without Chinese imports the standard of living would be impossible to maintain. But 'Made in America' means 'paid an arguably decent wage' and force the cost of many items to a point where the biggest patriots buy Chinese. Given a lower standard of living and a thriving US based manufacturing industry as choices we all know how people have voted; wallets first, principles second.
Third, American education is ghetoised by its funding system, assuring those from poor areas get poor educations and contributing to multi-generational poverty. If this is not true it means that people who just happen to come from poor areas are gentically lazy because of that, and this genetic laziness is racially mappable, as you're far more likely to be poor if you're not white. I don't belive that for a minute so it must be the funding. But the often religious-based obsession with local educational control means fair Federal funding of schools to eliminate such disparities is an impossibility.
Four, decent minimum-wages would speed up integration. Reduce poverty - of the poor whites too as god knows there's poor white people too. But the rich would have to pay more for maids and agricultural costs etc., would have to go up. So, that's a no-no.
When I visit America I am reminded of Romania. In Romania at the end of every broom, in every shitty job, you'll find a Roma, a gypsy. Well dressed young professional Romanians will go on about how terrible they are and make you want to scream RACIST!, but you don't do that on business trips do you? You don't tell your hosts that if they treated the Roma like ordinary people and made sure their kids were educated and had health care the underclass would integrate and cease being an underclass.
In the US there is the same terrible demarkation of jobs by race. Yes, in the US it is escapable for the very lucky and determined, but the fact that forty years after the Civil Rights movement there is still anything for non-white's to escape from is ignored. To accept that the continued race-based lines running through Amerian society are there through lack of political will is too big a condemnation of the American dream for many Americans to make.
Mexico is NOT a rich country by the way. It is a country where riches are distributed even worse than in the US. That is different from rich.
In the EU we had the end of civilisation as we know it predicted as a result of EU enlargment. Hasn't happened. Only the most ignorent and shiftless British people are done out of a job by Poles (for example). Poles work hard, pay taxes, get decent health care, integrate, send their children to decent schools. They often create jobs; god knows I couldn't have my car washed whilst I shopped 10 years ago, now someone for Gadansk will offer.
Immigrants also tend to have more kids, which is great in a welfare system, as the Western European model requires a good percentage of workers to retired people, and the fall in birth rates was endangering the model.
However, both in the UK and the US and NL immigration is used by principless politians looking to use the 'fear' card to garner easy votes. Oooo! Goreigners! Be very scared!!
It is slightly more subtle than Bob Mugabe's version, but still pretty obvious. But it still works. People only have themselves to blame for who they vote for. Ignorance is an act of will.

Do You Believe in Sanctuary Cities?

Share this