Could it happen here?

by BurnTheShips 65 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  funkyderek

  BurnTheShips:

  You're confusing "antitheism" with secularism. Unlike the attempts by the totalitarian regime of the Soviet Union to ensure that they were the only game in town, most modern opposition to religion is simply attempting to strip it of the special privileges it is currently granted in many countries. Your country, of course, has a complete separation of church and state, a fact of which I am sure you are quite proud, but some of us are not so lucky. What secularists want is for people to have the freedom to believe whatever they wish and participate in whatever rituals please them as long as those beliefs and rituals do not harm anybody else, which harm includes their being given tax money (or tax exemptions) to fund their religion, or having undue influence on the law.

  What reasonable person could possibly object to that?
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Any historical attempts, apart from Spains annihilation of the Aztec people which was complete, to force an ideology not to exist has failed, and will fail. In fact driving religion underground as did the USSR is arguably the way to produce a generation most dedicated to its cause. Once again, similarities with the expansion of Islam fundamentalism as a catalyst to what it sees as persecution is obvious

  You are mistaken, there were no Aztec people properly speaking, but a confederaqtion Nahuatl speaking peoples, the Mexica, from which the entire region took its name. The term did not even exist until the 19th century when Humboldt coined it.

  The Mexica live, by the many millions.

  Just wanted to point that out.

  Let ME ADD

  The USSR were not seeking to remove the spiritual, they were seeking to remove organized religion.....

  The quotes I included in the OP would seem to belie that statement Hillary-Step.

  Burn
• 

  BurnTheShips

  You're confusing "antitheism" with secularism. Unlike the attempts by the totalitarian regime of the Soviet Union to ensure that they were the only game in town, most modern opposition to religion is simply attempting to strip it of the special privileges it is currently granted in many countries. Your country, of course, has a complete separation of church and state, a fact of which I am sure you are quite proud, but some of us are not so lucky. What secularists want is for people to have the freedom to believe whatever they wish and participate in whatever rituals please them as long as those beliefs and rituals do not harm anybody else, which harm includes their being given tax money (or tax exemptions) to fund their religion, or having undue influence on the law.

  What reasonable person could possibly object to that?

  I certainly don't and the question I was asking was not directed towards secularism, but towards antitheism, which I see expressed much more frequently than I used to. It could be that I am exposed to it more than I used to be, or that it is more frequent. If it is more frequent, as an early post by our young DoomVoyager evidences, then it is a growing meme. If it is a growing meme, then it could lead to concrete action.

  I firmly agree with the separation of Church and State, and that is not the purpose of my question.

  Burn
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  I personally think that the anti-Islamic backlash will be the spark that touches off something big, to be sure.

  Islam is doing more to turn people away from religion than gladiators. People watch such fanaticism and realise that all religions at some level damage people's minds and ability to be rational.

  People like Dawkins, questions the idea of a God as taught by major religions. He looks for evidence that such a God exists. Only the insane believe without questioning.

  The Islam issue could be for religion, the straw that breaks the lions back.
• 

  lrkr

  The difference is, in our country the fanatics are religious, not athiest. As long as we have 50%++ of this country that is willing to base public policy on 2000 year old adopted, translated, adjusted manuscripts, I don't think anyone will outlaw religion.

  And the "liberal elites" don't want to outlaw any free speech. I don't fear that what happened in the Soviet Union will happen here anytime soon. I do fear that the religious right will play a key role in stripping our civil liberties, punishing politicians who are not religious, forcing their ideals on our schools, courthouses, medical research policy, zoning laws, etc, etc, etc.....Oh wait- that already happened....
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  Isn't it obvious that humans use organized religion to control? They do it because they know there is an inherent need for spirituality in the human race. And people fear death and discomfort. People fear fear its self. Religion is not what is evil. People are what are behind any evil done in the name of God or gods or goddesses or Jesus or angels.

  Then there are those that think that if there is no god or gods or goddesses, then there is no moral code or code of ethics humans ought to live by. If they can erase any gods, then perhaps that can erase the nagging feelings we all get when we step over an ethical line. You could be raised on an island and not exposed to any religion or gods/goddesses and still have a conscience. We cannot erase the conscience. Even serial killers feel sick after they come down from the heights of the excitement of the kill.

  God is not bad. People are the ones doing bad. It was asked on time on this board if there is a god, then how could Hitler have done what he did. And Andy wisely remarked, "People blindly trusted Hitler. Desperate people who wanted a quick fix. They voted him in. No one can blame God for this. Sometimes we need to learn from our own stupidity, or else we are doomed to keep repeating that stupidity." And it's happened here in the USA. Enough people have blindly trusted GW Bush. And we have lost our right to privacy. We have lost our right to a speedy trial. We have gas prices at nearly $4 per gallon. A recession so bad, the only thing that makes it less worse than the Great Depression is the stock market hasn't crashed.

  And yes, there is an anti-god sentiment that seems to be getting louder. Get rid of God and you will not have solved the problem. As long as there clever people who know how to use psychology to control people, you will have the same kind of evil. Take a look at North Korea. They worship their father leader. The entire country operates like a cult. No God. No religion. Just leader worship. And they are as brainwashed as JW's. And so controlled that they aren't even allowed to travel to a neighboring town.
• 

  hillary_step

  Burn,

  Burn,

  Sometimes I think that you disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. An adolescent inclination.

  You are mistaken, there were no Aztec people properly speaking, but a confederaqtion Nahuatl speaking peoples, the Mexica, from which the entire region took its name. The term did not even exist until the 19th century when Humboldt coined it.

  I know this. I am speaking in terms of what most people would understand. The Aztec Empire was destroyed by Spain, and all its indigenous peoples with it. This is what is referred to as the Aztec Nation and what is more, you know it!

  The USSR were not seeking to remove the spiritual, they were seeking to remove organized religion.....The quotes I included in the OP would seem to belie that statement Hillary-Step.

  They would seem at cursory examination to belie my statement. A more enlightened thinker might have thought a little more deeply about what I wrote. Whatyou fail to understand is that the term 'spiritual' is not uniquely enmeshed in religion, though religionists have difficulty understanding this. Atheists can be spiritual people! The USSR was not at war with the spirit, it was at war with organized religion.

  HS
• 

  BurnTheShips

  I know this. I am speaking in terms of what most people would understand. The Aztec Empire was destroyed by Spain, and all its indigenous peoples with it. This is what is referred to as the Aztec Nation and what is more, you know it!

  The Triple Alliance is gone, the indigenous people are not! I just finished this fantastic book a month ago, so I know! :-)

  http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/140004006X

  The USSR was not at war with the spirit, it was at war with organized religion.

  "Organized"

  For Marx's sake! That is such an ambiguous term as to be useless.

  If they were to round me up to force me to stop believing in something, hat difference does it make if my belief is somehow in sync with some sort of orthodoxy?

  I personally know many who underwent such treatment in Cuba. Incidentally, the vast majority that I knew were Witnesses. The funny thing is that a lot of these Cubans, after being pounded by Satan's hammer in Cuba, quickly faded away in the opulence of the US.

  Burn
• 

  serotonin_wraith

  Unless the chemical make up of your brain is changed in some way with drugs or technology, nobody can force you to stop believing what you believe. Your thoughts are safe. The worst that could happen is that you could be forced to stop acting on those beliefs- i.e. praying out loud (not in your head), Bibles taken off you so you can't read them, etc. I see no indication of that happening.

  In the grand scheme of things, does any of this matter? Jesus will smite the non believers, Christians can go live on their metaphorical cloud and in about a billion years this will all be a distant memory.
• 

  Kinjiro

  Burn,

  Burn,

  Sometimes I think that you disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. An adolescent inclination.

  I have to concur on this one.... although most of your posts are interesting, Burn, you seem to digress from the point in discussion in order to point out details on semantics... sophomoric at best...

  Lets continue the point... communism tried to erradicate religion, it failed because forcing a human to do something many times results in quite the opposite... religion is doomed because the newer generation dont take any crap for granted as most religious people of other generations do... the generations rising today question everything and faith is a totally alien concept to them... Show them the facts and they will believe, but they wont believe what cant be tested...

  I understand from other of your rightings that you are a deeply religious person.. and good for you... but the boggyman is not communism... that is over and done with... the real boggymen are those who without and actual facts and using redundant references (like saying the bible is the word of god) try to perpetuate beliefs that have brought more grief than good to human kind...