Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V 221 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • fresia
    fresia

    wow leololita where did you copy and paste this from? or is it your own work.

    Here is an interesting discussion of parousia that highlights how the technical meaning of "arrival" or "visitation" may involve the use of apantésis in the same context to denote the act of meeting a king or official when he arrives:

    "The Greek word parousia can have the ordinary meaning of 'arrival' or 'return'. Paul, for example, can rejoice in the parousia of absent friends and coworkers such as Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus in 1 Corinthians 16:17 or Titus in 2 Corinthians 7:6-7...In its ancient context parousia meant an arrival at a city of a conquering general, an important official, an imperial emissary, or, above all, the emperor himself. Whether that advent was good or bad news for the citizens depended absolutely on their prior relationship with the arriving one. It is probably necessary in those cases to translate parousia not just as 'visit' but as 'visitation.' Here is a classic example that shows how the result of such a visitation (parousia) depends absolutely on the nature of its reception (apantésis).

    "In November of 333 B.C.E., Alexander the Great defeated and humiliated Darius of Persia at Issus in northwestern Syria, as we saw at the start of this chapter on that bronze monument at Thessaloniki's seafrony. He then marched inexorably southward toward Egypt. The Jewish high-priest Jaddus remained unwisely loyal to Darius and repulsed Alexander's initial demand for submission, according to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities (11.327-28). After devastating sieges at Tyre and Gaza, Alexander finally turned against Jerusalem. Jaddus was afraid, 'not knowing how he could meet (apantésai) the Macedonians,' so he sacrificed for deliverance and 'God spoke oracularly to him in his sleep, telling him to take courage and adorn the city with wreaths and open the gates and go out to meet them (literally, make the hypantésin), and that the people should be in white garments... And, after doing all these things that he had been told to do, [he] awaited the coming (parousia) of the king.' It was a moment for trepidation certainly and celebration possibly. (Note, once again, those technical Greek terms for the 'coming' and the 'reception')

    "A visitation from the emperor was a very special occasion for any given city and quite possibly a once-in-a-lifetime event. In times of war it was of course a threatening advent, as in the above story, but under the Pax Romana, an imperial visitation would usually be a happy occasion. It demanded tremendous preparation for civic sacrifice, aristocratic festivity, and popular celebration, but especially a formal greeting by elites and people at the submissivly opened gates of the city. Notice Paul's use of those technical terms for visitation and reception. He uses parousia for 'our Lord Jesus at his coming' in 1 Thessalonians 2:19, the 'coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints' in 3:13, 'the coming of the Lord' in 4:15, and 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' in 5:23. He uses apantésis for when the Thessalonian Christians will "meet the Lord in the air" at his parousia at 4:17. That metaphor controls the entire discussion." (John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L. Reed, In Search of Paul: How Jesus' Apostle Opposed Rome's Empire with God's Kingdom, pp. 167-168)

    The usage of parousia in 1 Thessalonians is thus consistent with this technical sense. We find the same thing in Matthew. It is the arrival and not the subsequent presence that is prominent in the portion of the discourse dealing with the parousia, with the verb for "come" occurring some 11 times. The admonition is for Christians to be "ready" (hetoimoi) when the Son of Man comes (erkhetai), because they would not know what day or hour he is coming (24:44), and so they must "stay awake" (grégoreite) as v. 42 puts it. This is reminiscent of the high priest Jaddus above, who prepared for the Macedonian king's arrival and who was ready for it. This theme was dramatized in the three parables that follow, including the parable of the ten virgins who waited for the arrival of the bridegroom but who fell asleep (25:5). They did come however prepared with lamps to use when meeting (hupantésin) the bridegroom (25:1). Those who adequately prepared for the late arrival of the bridegroom had enough oil to keep their lamps lit when he in fact arrived. So even though they all fell asleep, those who prepared for the arrival of the bridegroom were there when the midnight cry rang forth announcing the arrival of the bridegroom and commanding the virgins: "Go out to meet (apantésin) him!" (v. 6). This quite clearly dramatizes the parousia in the technical sense as a "visitation".

  • Mary
    Mary

    Yes fresia, Leolaia has a doctorate---a PhD, which is probably why you can't comprehend what she's saying. Or perhaps because she uses words that are more than two syllabus or doesn't use pictures, that it's beyond your grasp to understand that she's proven the WT's bizarre theory about "this generation" and "parousia" is based on sand.

    In true Witness fashion, when you have no rebuttal for the evidence presented, you instead try to attack her credibility insinuating that she's done a copy and paste from somewhere else. Keep sticking your head in the sand fresia----you're looking as foolish as "scholar" and that's no easy feat.

  • fresia
    fresia

    All those here bragging to being an active elder and coming on here opposing, what is your agenda? or is it as I suspect just b/s, to make it look like elders know what is going on and spill the beans. I think they lie period.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Is this deflection, fresia? Why do you bring up elders now? I see you were soundly corrected when you suspected that leolaia's work was not her own.

    You have nothing else to say about her thorough study on the generations?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    wow leololita where did you copy and paste this from? or is it your own work.

    Here is an interesting discussion of parousia that highlights how the technical meaning of "arrival" or "visitation" may involve the use of apantésis in the same context to denote the act of meeting a king or official when he arrives:

    "The Greek word parousia can have the ordinary meaning of 'arrival' or 'return'. Paul, for example, can rejoice in the parousia of absent friends and coworkers such as Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus in 1 Corinthians 16:17 or Titus in 2 Corinthians 7:6-7...In its ancient context parousia meant an arrival at a city of a conquering general, an important official, an imperial emissary, or, above all, the emperor himself. Whether that advent was good or bad news for the citizens depended absolutely on their prior relationship with the arriving one. It is probably necessary in those cases to translate parousia not just as 'visit' but as 'visitation.' Here is a classic example that shows how the result of such a visitation (parousia) depends absolutely on the nature of its reception (apantésis).

    "In November of 333 B.C.E., Alexander the Great defeated and humiliated Darius of Persia at Issus in northwestern Syria, as we saw at the start of this chapter on that bronze monument at Thessaloniki's seafrony. He then marched inexorably southward toward Egypt. The Jewish high-priest Jaddus remained unwisely loyal to Darius and repulsed Alexander's initial demand for submission, according to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities (11.327-28). After devastating sieges at Tyre and Gaza, Alexander finally turned against Jerusalem. Jaddus was afraid, 'not knowing how he could meet (apantésai) the Macedonians,' so he sacrificed for deliverance and 'God spoke oracularly to him in his sleep, telling him to take courage and adorn the city with wreaths and open the gates and go out to meet them (literally, make the hypantésin), and that the people should be in white garments... And, after doing all these things that he had been told to do, [he] awaited the coming (parousia) of the king.' It was a moment for trepidation certainly and celebration possibly. (Note, once again, those technical Greek terms for the 'coming' and the 'reception')

    "A visitation from the emperor was a very special occasion for any given city and quite possibly a once-in-a-lifetime event. In times of war it was of course a threatening advent, as in the above story, but under the Pax Romana, an imperial visitation would usually be a happy occasion. It demanded tremendous preparation for civic sacrifice, aristocratic festivity, and popular celebration, but especially a formal greeting by elites and people at the submissivly opened gates of the city. Notice Paul's use of those technical terms for visitation and reception. He uses parousia for 'our Lord Jesus at his coming' in 1 Thessalonians 2:19, the 'coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints' in 3:13, 'the coming of the Lord' in 4:15, and 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' in 5:23. He uses apantésis for when the Thessalonian Christians will "meet the Lord in the air" at his parousia at 4:17. That metaphor controls the entire discussion." (John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L. Reed, In Search of Paul: How Jesus' Apostle Opposed Rome's Empire with God's Kingdom, pp. 167-168)

    The usage of parousia in 1 Thessalonians is thus consistent with this technical sense. We find the same thing in Matthew. It is the arrival and not the subsequent presence that is prominent in the portion of the discourse dealing with the parousia, with the verb for "come" occurring some 11 times. The admonition is for Christians to be "ready" (hetoimoi) when the Son of Man comes (erkhetai), because they would not know what day or hour he is coming (24:44), and so they must "stay awake" (grégoreite) as v. 42 puts it. This is reminiscent of the high priest Jaddus above, who prepared for the Macedonian king's arrival and who was ready for it. This theme was dramatized in the three parables that follow, including the parable of the ten virgins who waited for the arrival of the bridegroom but who fell asleep (25:5). They did come however prepared with lamps to use when meeting (hupantésin) the bridegroom (25:1). Those who adequately prepared for the late arrival of the bridegroom had enough oil to keep their lamps lit when he in fact arrived. So even though they all fell asleep, those who prepared for the arrival of the bridegroom were there when the midnight cry rang forth announcing the arrival of the bridegroom and commanding the virgins: "Go out to meet (apantésin) him!" (v. 6). This quite clearly dramatizes the parousia in the technical sense as a "visitation".

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    There are those who are slow of wit, those who willfully choose ignorance over enlightenment, and those whose certainty of opinion causes them to be blind to possibilities, but never have I ever encountered such a high per capita percentage possessing all three of these qualities than within the religion I gladly left.

    Oh, hi fresia! [*waves indulgently*]

    —AuldSoul

  • Mary
    Mary
    jgnat correctly observed: Is this deflection, fresia? Why do you bring up elders now? I see you were soundly corrected when you suspected that leolaia's work was not her own. You have nothing else to say about her thorough study on the generations?

    Yep, fresia has no defense and she knows she has no defense so she ignores all the proof and continues winding her merry way into la-la-land.

  • still_in74
    still_in74
    All those here bragging to being an active elder and coming on here opposing, what is your agenda? or is it as I suspect just b/s, to make it look like elders know what is going on and spill the beans. I think they lie period.

    Fresia, we dont hate you. As a wise former JW governing body member said once - "we are victims of victims" You, and many here are a testimony to that fact. I am not an elder. But I am an active JW. I said the closing prayer at the Book Study last night. I have been a JW my entire life. I am married to an active JW. Almost all of my family are JW's. All of my friends are JW's. What is my agenda? Am I lying? Why would I? I would only be lying to myself. You forget that many of us here at one time thought the same way as you do now. This is not bragging by anyone, trust me, none of us here want to be in our situation, many have likely expressed their feelings of emptiness to their shrink. Trust me. No one is bragging. We all wish our pasts didnt include the WTS. If you disgagree with us so adimately, why are you here? Is your anger a ruse to shield the guilt associated with your own feelings of doubt?

  • TD
    TD

    Don't stop, Fresia. Young people like my daughter, who has been raised in what JW's condescendingly call a "Divided household" read threads like this.

    They form their opinions about the JW faith, not based upon what JW literature says, but upon the knowledge, conduct, objectivity and integrity of JW apologists on the internet.

  • fresia
    fresia

    Yes fresia, Leolaia has a doctorate---a PhD, which is probably why you can't comprehend what she's saying. Or perhaps because she uses words that are more than two syllabus or doesn't use pictures, that it's beyond your grasp to understand that she's proven the WT's bizarre theory about "this generation" and "parousia" is based on sand.

    In true Witness fashion, when you have no rebuttal for the evidence presented, you instead try to attack her credibility insinuating that she's done a copy and paste from somewhere else. Keep sticking your head in the sand fresia----you're looking as foolish as "scholar" and that's no easy feat.

    I love it when you skite how intelligent you are, and you sit on your throne and look down on those that don't have a PhD or a better education. But you know that really doesn't give you a ticket in truth now does it.

    No one learns morals, at uni, college or any other institution. But in all honest I will tell you, I do have my misgivings about the WTS and the GB. But what I can't get past and let go is the b/s all the decent qualities that they have, and as a group they do try and live Christian life's based on the principles of Christs teaching. And thats no to say no one here doesn't. My point is that I look at the fruitage, and indeed JW do display what Jesus said was the identifying mark of a true Christian.

    I guess Jehovah sees the big picture, and in the meantime I wait and hope for my answer.

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