Simple question: JESUS WAS THE SON OF (which?) MAN

by Terry 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Mt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Mt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    Mt 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

    Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, . . 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Why give the geneology of Joseph, then?

    Terry,

    This established Jesus as the son of David. Matthew nailed it with his lineage and rightly so. The scriptures support this in many examples. All Joseph had to do is accept Jesus as his Son which he did and Jesus would be his son. This is why Jesus was supposed to be the Son of Joseph. Legally he was Joseph’s son and a son of David. This also does not disqualify him from also being the Son of Man as prophets were often called by that designation. There is no smoking gun here. Consider what is written in John Gill’s Expositor

    being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph;

    who had espoused Mary before she was with child of the Holy Ghost, and afterwards took her to wife, and brought up her son; so that it was not known but that he was the son of Joseph. Whether or no the Jewish notion of the Messiah, the son of Joseph {y} may not take its rise from hence, may be considered: however, Joseph might very rightly be called, as he was supposed to be, the father of Jesus, by a rule which obtains with the Jews {z} that he

    "that brings up, and not he that begets, is called the father, " or parent; of which they give various instances {a} in Joseph, in Michal, and in Pharaoh’s daughter.

    Narkissos,

    This is also why Luke could use the name of Joseph in his lineage back to Adam. Joseph of course could also be traced back to Adam if need be. But his lineage through Mary would confirm the humanity of Jesus as Son of Man for those inclined to disagree using sex as an argument. Once again John Gill’d Expositor says:

    Which was the son of Eli;

    meaning, not that Joseph was the son of Eli; for he was the son of Jacob, according to #Mt 1:16, but Jesus was the son of Eli; and which must be understood, and carried through the whole genealogy, as thus; Jesus the son of Matthat, Jesus the son of Levi, Jesus the son of Melchi, &c. till you come to Jesus the son of Adam, and Jesus the Son of God; though it is true indeed that Joseph was the son of Eli, having married his daughter; Mary was the daughter of Eli: and so the Jews speak of one Mary, the daughter of Eli, by whom they seem to design the mother of our Lord: for they tell {b} us of one,

    "that saw, ..., "Mary the daughter of Eli" in the shades, hanging by the fibres of her breasts; and there are that say, the gate, or, as elsewhere {c}, the bar of the gate of hell is fixed to her ear."

    By the horrible malice, in the words, you may know who is meant: however, this we gain by it, that by their own confession, Mary is the daughter of Eli; which accords with this genealogy of the evangelist, who traces it from Mary, under her husband Joseph; though she is not mentioned, because of a rule with the Jews {d}, that

    "the family of the mother is not called a family."

    The virgin birth story therefore is not a problem under Jewish Law and custom.

    Joseph

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    My highly unlearned opinion:

    I think the Son of Man is an appellation used to denote Jesus' humble station as a human, emphasizing he was relatable and could relate to the people he was in contact with.

    I think this is often used to highlight an unexpected contrast - that a Son of Man is found with the Divine with him.

    What is does for me is underscore our nature as both base creature and holders of a kind of spark, a consciousness.

    In this way, I find the Jesus stories as commentary on what is true of all of us - whether you think of this "spark" as conscience, awareness, consciousness, higher self, Holy Spirit, or anything else you believe to be the best within you.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    I think this is often used to highlight an unexpected contrast - that a Son of Man is found with the Divine with him.

    Voideater,

    People think a lot of things and so we have many competing denominations. But such thoughts are not found in scripture or in this phrase. They are diverse texts, combined out of context and presented as truth. This is what we must deal with in our time.

    Joseph

  • 5go
    5go
    The Pauline epistles were already in circulation before the sack of Jerusalem.

    Actually that has been used as proof of the nonexistence of Jesus. Paul outside of his on the road visitation never met Jesus despite.....

    One) Being in the area at the right time

    Two) Being a rather influential religious leader of the Jews

    Three) Being an avid Christian persecutor

    In fact he rarely even mentions Jesus unless he is making an appeal for power.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Or...

    Is Jesus merely referring directly to the Jewish Apocolyptic literature's character THE SON OF MAN and referencing his own belief?

    This rather than identifying himself with that character.......?

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Terry, if this is a simple question, why the not so simple answers from some of the best contributers on this forum?

    Which of the contributers ( Terry, JosephMalik, Narkissos, Leolaia, Otwo, Awakened, Bts, Gregor, and others ) believe that the Bible is from God and which of the contributers believe that it is not?

    Those that believe and don't believe, have mixed understandings when answering your simple question.

    As for me, I don't believe that "The Holy Bible" is from God. I believe that it is written by groups of men and or woman with special, interest's in their own cause.

    I know that this is not about whether one believes in the Bible or not, however, the Bible is being used to try and answer your simple question about the man Jesus.

    With respect to all the contributers, I ask, what does history tell us? How does history answer the question without using the Bible?

    Blueblades

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Terry,

    Your last suggestion (that Jesus actually did not identify to the apocalyptic "Son of Man") might work for some isolated sayings, e.g. Mark 14:62//: "you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power,' and 'coming with the clouds of heaven.' "

    But imo it is not the most natural reading of those passages in their extant context, and it doesn't apply to any of the Gospels as a whole -- think especially of sayings like8:31//: "Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."

    This doesn't corespond to the common Jewish representation of the Son of Man in heaven.

    So it all boils down (again!) to the question of "the historical Jesus behind the Gospels". If you assume there was such a character and he shared contemporary apocalyptical views, he may well have referred to another as "the Son of Man" -- and then the Gospel writers gave an entirely different meaning to those sayings by identifying him to "the Son of Man".

    But this is pure (and imo unnecessary) conjecture. To the Gospel writers Jesus was "the Son of Man" -- a status dependent on Jewish apocalyptics but modified to suit the role of the Christian Saviour.

    Blueblades, I don't either, but I doubt this is the problem.

    What made Terry's question less simple than he might have meant was his use of the loaded phrase "Son of Man". Had he asked, "was Jesus really a man?" the discussion would probably have been very different.

    Edit to answer your last question: history apart from Christian input has strictly nothing to say about Jesus, let alone whether he was a man or something else.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Thanks Narkissos. So, history has nothing to say about Jesus. Then the answers given to Terry are predicated on the information found in the book called the Bible and other sources quoted by you and Leolaia and others. Aren't some of these other sources considered writings of history and not some holy books?

    The reason I ask is for creditably when it comes to talk about Jesus.

    Blueblades

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Blueblades:

    The question springs from the "holy books," nowhere else. Leaving the misinterpretation of the phrase "Son of Man" aside, it is a purely literary and theological question. I could re-word it, for example, as: "Is the NT, taken as a whole (which is admittedly not the best reading angle), consistent in picturing Jesus Christ as both (1) a heavenly being made human and (2) the natural son of his mother? (3) Does the further notion of "virgin birth" (as suggested by Matthew and Luke) change anything to the logical problem involved?" All of this has nothing to do with history.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    As a child, I wondered why my church was named Trinity Episcopal. I asked Mom what trinity meant. She told me and so I went and got out my revised KJ version. I could not find one place where Jesus himself claims to be God. He claimed to be the son of God and the son of Man. I went back and told her I didn't believe in the trinity. She told me she didn't either.

    In the movie Bambi, his mother tells him "man" is in the forest. In that case man is understood to be the animal man or human. She isn't referring to the gender of the human. Jesus is basically saying he is the son of (hu)man.

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