Dispelling Watchtower Myths of RC Beliefs

by Amazing 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • RR
    RR
    Papal Infallibility: This is a most unfortunate issue that gets completely twisted from reality. The Pope is a fallible man. He is a sinner as we all are. He has to put faith in Jesus and live in cooperation with the Holy Spirit as any Christian. The best way to describe how he can then be infallible is this: Nearly all Christians, both Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Catholic accept the Bible as inspired of God, and hence inerrant or infallible. The Bible was written by fallible sinful men. St. Peter who denied Jesus with a curse wrote two NT books. God can and does use fallible men to do infallible things? The RCC has always held that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from inerrant teaching ... not necessarily inerrant conduct as evidenced by the seven congregations Jesus strongly counseled in the book of Revelation ... hence its "teachings" are considered without error. Since the Pope is the chief spokesman of the Church, then when he speaks on matters of "faith and morals" it cannot deviate from Church teaching, and cannot run against scripture. So, in this sense, just as the Apostles and other Bible writers wrote infallible words, the Pope can be and is used in an infallible way. Popes do not make willy-nilly rulings and tell people how to live their lives as the JW Governing Body does. And when Popes have said and done wrong things, the Catholic Church has been quite critical of them, and one can find this in Catholic history as well as secular history.

    Hmmm ... so when the pope 'screws up' they just pull out the old "he's an impect man" card. OK

    Hellfire: This doctrine is blown out of proportion by the JWs ... all the while the JWs use Armageddon and eternal death in the same scare tactic way that they condemn the Churches of Christendom. I was taught in my youth that Hell is eternal "separation" from God. It is expressed in terms of eternal torment because that has been Christian teachings from the beginning of the faith ... one cannot read hisotry and the early Christian writers and miss this teaching. Christians of all denominations are normally not led to be scared of a literal firey hell ... Hell does not dominate our thinking ... so to hold it up in the way JWs would, as some object of proof that one's faith is not valid, is not correct.

    Well, at least the Watchtower is kinder that they just send the masses to death and not torture. BTW, what about all those paintings of demons and pitchforks torturing unbelievers in a fiery pit? Poet license?

    Praying to St. Mary, the Mother of Jesus, and praying to the Saints: This doctrine has been greatly maligned by non-Catholic denominations in the last couple of hundred years. The Watchtower is no exception. Catholics and Orthodox hold a long, nearly 2000-year, historic view that the Saints are in heaven, alive, and are watching over us. The Aposles Creed, a statement of faith dating back in various forms to the early 2nd century, and somewhat into the first century, holds that "... we believe in the communion of Saints, ..." which means that one can talk to a Saint just as one would talk to a close member of one's family or a close friend. Such prayer is not considered an act of worship. In fact, I can find no scripture that would limit our contact to only the Father, nor any that prohibits contact with the Angels or Saints. To a Catholic, such "prayer' is a mere form of communication to ask a Saint of special interest to pray for us, to help us in our walk with God. Perhaps you have asked someone in your family to pray for you, and look out for you? It is meant the same way to Catholics.

    One cannot find one scriptures that claims when the saints died they go directly to heaven upon death, or that we are to have communion with them from beyond!

    Exclusively the Only True Church: Neither Rome nor Constantinople hold that the only true Christians are located within their walls. They both recognize that Christians are found everywhere. When one becomes a Catholic, one comes to develop a flavor for this word meaning 'universal' and that the Catholic faith accepts people as brothers and sisters who are in other denominations. What Rome and Constantinople do hold to is that they are the "full expressions" of the historic apostolic faith as it was handed down through centuries directly from the Apostles. With them come the seven Sacraments, and the fullness of the Church. It would be cruel, unloving, and judgmental to treat non-Catholic Christians as anything less than our bretheran.

    Hmmm ... didn't the current pope state that all protestant denominations aren't even Christian?

    RR

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    RR,

    Hmmm ... so when the pope 'screws up' they just pull out the old "he's an impect man" card. OK

    That was not stated. When it comes to matters teaching on "faith and morals" neither the Church nor the Pope can err. When it comes to living a perfect life, we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, including the Pope.

    Well, at least the Watchtower is kinder that they just send the masses to death and not torture. BTW, what about all those paintings of demons and pitchforks torturing unbelievers in a fiery pit? Poet license?

    Ahhhh ... kinder, yes ... with firey hail stones striking and buring people, fleash falling off their bodies, and eyes bursting out of their heads ... all at Watchtower Armageddon ... kinder .... mmmmmmm ... strange sense of kind.

    One cannot find one scriptures that claims when the saints died they go directly to heaven upon death, or that we are to have communion with them from beyond!

    The Bible clearly teaches that one is resurrected to heaven upon their death. Jesus promised as much to the man on the cross next to him ... and the Apostle Paul confirmed it as well ... and early Christian teaching held that view. And no we do not have to commune with them if we do not wish. But, the point of this post was to show how Catholics view such communication, and the fact that it is not as presented by many non-Catholics.

    Hmmm ... didn't the current pope state that all protestant denominations aren't even Christian?

    Not that I have ever heard. When visiting the USA he openly stated that non-Catholics are our Christian brothers and that we all all in this together.

    JEFFRO: Unless they're Protestants.

    No so. That is why I posted this thread to dispel such myths as you stated.

    Jim Whitney

  • 5go
    5go

    Funny this dispelling of watchtower myth also kind of flies in the face of the RCC's history.

    Though I do agree the watchtower is anti-catholic to a hypocritcal fault.

  • RR
    RR
    That was not stated. When it comes to matters teaching on "faith and morals" neither the Church nor the Pope can err. When it comes to living a perfect life, we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, including the Pope.

    Strangely enough, that's exactly what the Watchtower teaches!

    Ahhhh ... kinder, yes ... with firey hail stones striking and buring people, fleash falling off their bodies, and eyes bursting out of their heads ... all at Watchtower Armageddon ... kinder .... mmmmmmm ... strange sense of kind.

    But's at least it's over quickly, not forever and forever being tortured!

    The Bible clearly teaches that one is resurrected to heaven upon their death. Jesus promised as much to the man on the cross next to him ... and the Apostle Paul confirmed it as well ... and early Christian teaching held that view. And no we do not have to commune with them if we do not wish. But, the point of this post was to show how Catholics view such communication, and the fact that it is not as presented by many non-Catholics.

    Yeah, I noticed all the scriptural proofs you presented!

    Not that I have ever heard. When visiting the USA he openly stated that non-Catholics are our Christian brothers and that we all all in this together.

    Really? Better google it. Here's a excerpt"

    "Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value. Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism. ..." (source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1863942/posts)

    RR

  • cabasilas
    cabasilas

    RR,

    Just taking one point. If you go on to read the excerpt quoting Benedict XVI:

    As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.

    The Catholic position is that a "church" requires a "bishop" to be able to offer a valid Eucharist. Since most Protestant groups do not have bishops (as well as do not have the same view as Catholic and Orthodox on the Eucharist), the Catholic Church refers to Protestant groups as "eeclesial communities." The Catholic Church does recognize the bishops of Eastern Orthodox and other Orthodox groups as "churches"--and these are not in communion with the Catholic Church, nor do these Orthodox Churches recognize the spiritual authority of the pope.

    The particular issue that you're referring in this google quote is not whether they are viewed as Christian or not (as you erroneously stated earlier in this thread) but whether they have apostolic succession. The Catholic Church emphatically teaches that all who believe in Jesus are Christian.

    Catholicism recognizes all the Ancient Churches: Orthodox, Coptic, Assyrian as having apostolic succession--and thse are not in communion with the pope. All these non-Catholic groups are recognized as "churches" with valid bishops by the Catholic Church. However, Rome has not recognized Anglican bishops as valid and that's been a sticking point, to be sure. (That's a rather long discussion that I'll not go into here.) But, emphatically, the issue of "church" is a different issue than whether a group is considered Christian.

  • middleman
    middleman

    I personally believe the RCC is the harlot of Babylon mentioned in Revelation. However, I also believe that there ARE some Catholics who genuinely love Jesus despite their corrupted church and leaders. I feel most of those folks don't stay Catholic though. The church as a whole is FULL of non necessary dogma/traditions that are NOT Biblical. All you have to do is really study their PAGAN origins and corrupt history. Case in point is that after the Babylonians were conquered and were expelled from their land, many of them migrated and set up camp in southern Italy. In time the RCC rose from the ashes of the fallen Roman Empire mixing their version of "Christianity" with the pagan roots of their ancestors. Such doctrines including holy water, baptism for the dead, veneration of the virgin (Semiramis) and baby etc, were incorporated into the RCC. As history has shown, anyone that didn't adhere to their brand of Christianity (including Jews and other groups),could easily be put on trial for heresy and therefore executed...need I say the Inquisitions?

    Fast forward to when the Bible started to be translated out of and independently of St. Jerome's corrupt "Latin Vulgate", many of these people were executed also. There are multiple reasons for this with one being that in time the "laymen" were being educated in the Biblical languages-among others (not just the clergy), and the Latin language was being used less and less. With the "commoner" now having his own Bible in his own language, they had more fuel to rebel against what the RCC had bastardized on Bible doctrine. In the end this was part of the means for the Reformation. The RCC was losing it's firm grip on Europe and were in damage control mode-dealing with these "rebels" many times to the death.

    I have kept this vague and very short for now, but can expound in many further details if needed.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    JEFFRO: Unless they're Protestants.
    No so. That is why I posted this thread to dispel such myths as you stated.

    That is not dispelling myths at all, it's plain old revisionist history, and entirely ignorant of the facts.

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    I wouldn't take anything out of THE FREEREPUBLIC without disinfecting my hands after to avoid the xenophobic, homophobic, ultra-patriotic bigotry that runs in that site.

    INQ

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    "Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value. Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism. ..."

    What this means is that these other religious bodies are not churches in the proper sense, and that the Catholic Church does not consider their holy orders valid. Why? There is no apostolic succession, this is why. The Pope did NOT say that the members of these churches are not Christians and are not part of the mystical body of Christ with hope of everlasting life.

    This is not new, this has always been the Catholic Church's position. True churches were founded by the apostles, or their apostolic successors. Holy orders were granted by the apostles, and their apostolic successors. The Orthodox Churches, for example, are true Churches. There are many Catholic Churches, not just the Latin one. All these particular Churches were founded either by the Apostles or their named successors.

    A CT Russell founding his own church in Pennsylvania is not a true Church in this sense of the word, he recieved no apostolic authority.

    The Catholic Church is actually comprised of 23 individual Catholic Churches, all with their own traditions, liturgies, and regulations, and all in *complete* union with Rome. The Latin branch is so overwhelmingly large, however, that even most Catholics don't know that these other branches exist. They include:

    The Western (Latin) Liturgical Tradition:
    1) The Latin Catholic Church

    The Alexandrian Liturgical Tradition:
    2) The Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Egypt (1741)
    3) The Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia) - Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)

    The Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) Liturgical Tradition:
    4) Maronite Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (never separated, union re-affirmed 1182)
    5) Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
    6) Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate) - India, United States (1930)

    The Armenian Liturgical Tradition:
    7) Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)

    The Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
    8) Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
    9) Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate) - India, United States (at latest, 1599)

    The Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
    10) Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church (apostolic administration - Albania (1628)
    11) Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present) - Belarus (1596)
    12) Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate) - Bulgaria (1861)
    13) Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of KriĹževci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate) - Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
    14) Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates) - Greece, Turkey (1829)
    15) Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate) - Hungary (1646)
    16) Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy) - Italy (Never separated)
    17) Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate) - Republic of Macedonia (1918)
    18) Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
    19) Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate) - Romania, United States (1697)
    20) Russian Byzantine Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs) - Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
    21) Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate) - United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
    22) Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
    23) Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate) - Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)

    A family tree:

    alt

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr
    Give the WT long enough and they will become the RCC.

    They already are

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/152479/1.ashx

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