Dispelling Watchtower Myths of RC Beliefs

by Amazing 60 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Amazing

  Hi M.J.,

  You made a good response.

  Actually, I get it from the way people approach their "worship" to God himself. Beyond praying, which can be construed as "worship", what else is there? Devotion, respect, veneration, and praise in song. That's five out of five (Ave Maria?) given to Mary. Incidentally, I've never been a JW, but I have been a Catholic (we switched to an evangelical protestant church when I was in the third grade).

  Yes, most anything I do with or toward God involves some level of worship and glory. But, let's break it down this way. When I sing, I can sing to God as praise and worship, or I can sing a song to my wife, or I can sing on TV as part of may career. So, is singing an act of worship simply because I also do it to God? Must I not sing about anything else or to anyone else? No, for it is the content of what is said in song, or prayer, or other act that determines whether it is worship. I do not tell a Saint that I worship him/her for creating me. Likewise, when I pray to God, I do not ask him to pray for me, as that would be nonsensical content when speaking to God. Therefore, asking a Saint to pray for me is not an act of worship to the Saint, it is rather recognition that I believe that the Saint is really in heaven, and is in a good position to speak on my behalf just as a good human would be to pray for me here on earth.

  When I sing to God, I prase him and glorify him as creator, as our Father, as our savior. I would never sing to a human or Saint that way. I would never thank my own mother for granting me hope for everlasting life ... well, except for giving birth to me, and raising me in the faith, and literally in my case, she refused to abort me when the doctors told her to do so to save her own life ... but her Catholic stand against abortion would not permit her to do sucha thing ... so, in a limited way I suppose I can praise humans in word, prayer, and song. But, the highest praise and glory, the ultimate honor for everlasting life is reserved for God.

  Jim Whitney

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  Middleman,

  BTS, read and study the full history of the RCC, then we'll talk. Blessings........

  I have read, studied, and understand the full history of the RCC. If I were judging Christianity based on conduct, I would have nothing to do with any of it. I studied Catholic history for years and year under the Dominicans. I studied it somewhat during my JW years, and I have restudied it all from the time of Christ down to the year 2008, and I am well aware of it. I assume you are referring to her serious sins, which I openly acknowledged in my opening of this thread. There is no perfect anything on this earth, save a few, such as the sinless Jesus Christ, and the preservation of the Faith by the Holy Spirit. The Baptists and other Protestant groups engaged in racism for hundreds of years, and one can find serious sins by Angelicans, Lutherans, Buddhists, Hindus, Daoists, Shintoists, Confucianists, Methodists, Pentecostals, atheists, agnostics, communists, capitalists, democrats and republicans and any group or person of any kind. ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. A checkered history of the Church is not denied, nor is it an issue, nor is it relevant to this post. This post is about correcting understanding, and dispelling myth held by many ex-JWs. Sin is no surprise. It is what Jesus died to pay for, and forgive. But he did not provide that we would become sinless upon becoming Christian. Instead, we receive a conditional justification, and we have the Church and Holy Spirit to help us walk in sanctification. How we perform and how God judges will be up to him. Were I to still believe in the teachings of the Watchtower, I would still be with them in spite of their sins, and they have many. I left the JWs, not because they sin, but because they refused to deal with the sin, and as I studied their history, and understood their fraud, I had a choices ... and those choices led me back to the only Church that has solid linkage to the Apostles, and any possibility to claim historic Apostolic authority. So, it is simply a matter of belief. Show me somthing better than Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, God the Father, and His Church, the Holy Catholic Church. Jim Whitney
• 

  mouthy

  Jim>Were you Catholic? No I was NOT Catholic... I was pregnant by my Catholic hubby..
  I was not allowed to get married in White ( my Mothers orders, )because I was a sinner. The only people in the Church was me ,my hubby,my Dad & my Mother.( & the two kids they brought in as witnesses )
  My Husband gave the ring to the Priest & the Priest asked for some SILVER!!!! to cross the ring with ( a blessing he said)
  The only one that had any silver was my Dad( who had been told he could not be a witness)-two kids from the school next door had been brought in as witnesses )So my Dad gave a half a crown( English money) the Priest then pocketed it, My Dad ( an atheist) said " I knew I wouldnt see that again....& he didnt.
  As for the Tax receipts Jim it caused the biggest argument with me & my hubby , I was so disgusted !!as all the Family( HIS) were Catholics, used to go to Midnight mass & swear like troupers, gamble,& Had the filthiest homes ( which I came to as a warbride in Montreal. ) You have no idea what I thought of catholics. By the way my baby that I HAD to get married for was named FAITH VIRGINIA by my protestant Mother saying faith that she would be a virgin UNLIKE ME!!!!She was!!! I was bombed ( buzz bomb) & she was born the day after -she died three days later. In MY opinion the catholic church is just as crooked as the JWS . Sorry Jim it sickens me with all this religious talk.... LOVE covers a multitude of sin. Not rules & regulations ,picking & choosing. I stand before MY GOD> Jesus Christ. with out ANY RELIGIOUS MEN WHO THINK THEY ARE PERFECT ......Sorry to offend. But I am ticked....They did as much damage to me as the WT. Yes MOUTHY!!!!!
• 

  Amazing

  Mouthy,

  I was pregnant by my Catholic hubby ...

  And he was marrying his pregnant Protestant wife. I fail to see what he religin has to do with it, andmore than what your religions had to do with you participating with him ... it wasa a choice each of you made.

  I was not allowed to get married in White ( my Mothers orders, )because I was a sinner. The only people in the Church was me ,my hubby,my Dad & my Mother.( & the two kids they brought in as witnesses )

  That was also common in Protestant churches in the 1940s and earlier. I recall that practice continuing up into the 1960s. Nowadays, neither Protestant nor Catholic make such a fuss about what color the bride wears. Those are cultural customs that go with the territory of the era in which they are deemed important.

  My Husband gave the ring to the Priest & the Priest asked for some SILVER!!!! to cross the ring with ( a blessing he said) The only one that had any silver was my Dad ( who had been told he could not be a witness)-two kids from the school next door had been brought in as witnesses ) So my Dad gave a half a crown( English money) the Priest then pocketed it, My Dad ( an atheist) said " I knew I wouldnt see that again....& he didnt.

  Did he ask for it back? Perhaps the priest assumed that your husband understood the custom. Frankly, that custom is something I have not heard before, but then my view is largely based on my American experience. The custom has nothing to do with what the Catholic Church teaches, or whether it is the authorized church with Apostolic succession.

  As for the Tax receipts Jim it caused the biggest argument with me & my hubby, I was so disgusted!! as all the Family (HIS) were Catholics, used to go to Midnight mass & swear like troupers, gamble,& Had the filthiest homes ( which I came to as a warbride in Montreal.)

  Hell, I still pop out swear words as I suspect most any Christian does in any denomination. I smoke a cigar on occasion, and enjoy a good shot of whiskey. I fail to see the relevance of the sins of one man to the terachings of the Catholic Church, or the other 1.3 Billion Roman Catholics throughout the world. I fail to see how being a sinner somehow delegitimizes the Catholic Church. There is no Church chock full of perfect people ... there is no Church without sinners. let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

  You have no idea what I thought of catholics.

  I have a good idea. Sometimes Catholics just plain piss me off ... in fact, I can give you some terrible stories of my own parish priest who was not sure he believed in God, and another priest in our parish who tried to have an affair with a relative of mine ... and Catholics are not the only ones who piss me off ... there are boneheaded Baptists, Evangelicals, and other groups, including some Christians who disavow all churches and judge them by a narrow set of criteria ... JWs for example.

  By the way my baby that I HAD to get married for was named FAITH VIRGINIA by my protestant Mother saying faith that she would be a virgin UNLIKE ME!!!! She was!!! I was bombed (buzz bomb) & she was born the day after - she died three days later.

  I am sorry your baby died ... that is a terrible experience for any women to go through. My nephew died in the arms of my sister-in-law, his mom. It never left her the same. She is a practicing Catholic ... not the strongest Catholic ... but still in the Church.

  In MY opinion the catholic church is just as crooked as the JWS.

  The Catholic Church has crooked people in it, as any religious denomination does. But, there is no comparison to the JWs, for the Watchtower is a fraud and an illigitimate religion with no valid connection to the Apostles. But, I consider most JWs as individuals to be fair decent people, as I do most of the 1.3 Billion Catholics to be fairly good people.

  Sorry Jim it sickens me with all this religious talk.

  I was merely trying to dispel some common myths held by JWs and many ex-JWs regarding Catholic teaching and practice. I am not here to talk religion or promote a Church, or convert anyone. I posted my thread in light of Tom Cabeen's upcoming interview on May 19th on EWTN. There are legitimate concerns with aspects of Catholicism ... but the common myths seem to cause most of the angst, and if removed, then perhaps it will lead to better dialogue.

  ... LOVE covers a multitude of sin. Not rules & regulations, picking & choosing.

  Agreed that loves covers ... and we as Christians need to cover a multitude of sins on not judge hundreds of millions and a billion members of a Church by the sins of a few leaders, most of which took place hundreds of year ago in a dark period. In fact, we all need to stop fighting our ancestors wars and start living more in Christ today while we have time. As for rules and regs, these are a JW problem. Catholics do not cover sins by rules and regs. Only God can cover and forgive sins in a way that brings life. Rules and regs are merely guides ... kind of like speed limits that are there for your safety ... but no one perfectly keeps the speed limit ... but willful excesses will led to deadly consequences. Likewise, avoiding the works of the flesh, and obeying the Holy Spirit leads one twoard the Kingdom of God.

  I stand before MY GOD> Jesus Christ. with out ANY RELIGIOUS MEN WHO THINK THEY ARE PERFECT ......Sorry to offend.

  You don't offend me. But can you honestly say that any certain religious person thinks that he or she is perfect? Can you read minds? Or are you judging people by your personal views built upon your own unfortunate experiences and how you chose to react to those experiences? Jesus, whom you refer to as your God tells us very plainly to not judge, lest we be judged, for the measure that we measure out to others will be measured out to us in return. Don't worry about offending me ... for it is God whom we must worry about offending.

  But I am ticked. ... They did as much damage to me as the WT. Yes MOUTHY!!!!!

  I am likewise ticked (pissed off) at some of the harm I encountered with certain Catholic priests in my youth ... harm that led to my joining the JWs ... BUT ... Just as I do not judge over 6 million Jehovah's Witnesses for the sins of a few Elders and the Watchtower leaders, I do not judge 1.3 Billion Catholics for the sins of a few priests or Church leaders who have also hurt me. The sins of any of these imperfect people involved has no relevance to the legitimate Apostolic succession that the Catholic and Orthodoc churches have to the Apostles and Christ. It has no bearing on what they teach. (Example: If my Mom beat me cruely (she did not, just an example) it is wrong, but has no bearing on the fact that she is the only legitimate wife of my dad.) We must learn to separate issues, otherwise everything gets all tangled up in an impossible web that can never make sense. It only has bearing on what they, as individual sinners, do in responding to their own sinful flesh or whether they obey the Holy Spirit. One thing about leaving the JWs is that we need to get beyond past hurt and pain, stop judging and start living. Yours in Christ, Jim Whitney
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Hell, I still pop out swear words as I suspect most any Christian does in any denomination. I smoke a cigar on occasion, and enjoy a good shot of whiskey.

  Fookin' right on dude! Me too.

  It's a big 'ol Church, I like that. Lots of space.

  BTS
• 

  mouthy

  stop judging and start living. You havent read all my post evidently... I do not judge !!!!I only DONT follow men like you who are SO judgemental. I said I married my Catholic husband ...I was an atheist at the time.... I only said my Catholic husband because I wanted you to know HE was I wasnt. I was 16 yrs he was 19 I loved him till the day He died 451/2 years. I know NONE are perfect.... Your getting me so angry by your implications I will not read this thread again so dont bother to answer. Keep on being just as you are Perfect.Just as you were as an elder........ .
• 

  Sunspot

  Dear Jim,

  I just popped back here to JWD to do some research on a topic, and happened to see your post. It is SO terrific to see you posting! Funny, I was thinking about you the other day and was wondering how you were!

  I have chosen a bit different spiritual path than you have, but I am thrilled that you have found what you have and also thrilled that you are so dedicated TO it.

  It is refreshing to be able to have friends that embrace various faiths and to be able to appreciate each one for who and what they have become since leaving the WTS cult. We find that so many that leave the WTS become so soured on ANY religion that they go completely in the opposite directions....but then that is THEIR choice and should not be demeaned or belittled.

  They say that things happen the "threes"....and withing the last 24 hours I have had two very nice surprises come to me....I will count seeing you posting again....as treat number three!

  hugs,

  Annie
• 

  Amazing

  Mouthy and then Sunspot,

  I hope you will reconsider your reactions to my comments.

  Hi Mouthy,

  stop judging and start living. You havent read all my post evidently ... I do not judge !!!!

  I was not accusing you specifically of judging, but rather ex-JWs often carry with them their judgments learned as JWs. I still cathc myself doing judt that.

  I only DONT follow men like you who are SO judgemental.

  I only follow Jesus Christ. I am Catholic once again, but that is always secondary to my faith in Jesus.

  I said I married my Catholic husband ...I was an atheist at the time.... I only said my Catholic husband because I wanted you to know HE was I wasnt. I was 16 yrs he was 19 I loved him till the day He died 451/2 years. I know NONE are perfect....

  I understood your commentary, and was agreeing with you for the most part.

  Your getting me so angry by your implications I will not read this thread again so dont bother to answer. Keep on being just as you are Perfect.Just as you were as an elder........ .

  Please don't generation implications that are not intended. I am sorry you feel that you have to take a swipe at me about JW eldership, and being being perfect. Obviously I am not perfect, but a lowly sinner as anyone else.

  Peace,

  Jim Whitney

  Hi Sunspot / Anne,

  It has been a year since I was last active on JWD. I am only here temporarily to address one topic related to Tom Cabeen being interviewed on EWTN. As evidenced with my exchanged with Mouthy above, it is obvious to me that the discussion is turning in the wrong direction. I still enjoy board forums, but I just have so little time anymore. Anyway, it was great to see you again. If you wish, stay in touch. My email is still: [email protected]

  Yours truly,

  Jim Whitney
• 

  bluesapphire

  x
• 

  toreador

  Thank you for your post Jim. At least it gives me a perspective from your point of view. I look forward to your finishing your explanation for this.

  Stan: In what year did the Catholic Church institute praying to Saints? Was this a practice by early Christians shortly after the death of Christ? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri “We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257). ///

  Part of this quote requires more time to develop my response, so I will come back to this thread. Prima facia is can appear to be offending to some non-Catholcis, especially fundamentalists who are not well educated in Catholic theology.

  That is going to be extremly tough IMO and require some special pleading. :) Tor
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Toreador,

  I just got back from beain away for a few days ... and I did not touch a PC for that time. I will get to work on the last part and see what I can come up with that will resolve the statements made by the quoted priest.

  Jim Whitney