by Amazing 60 Replies latest jw friends
Wow, debating with you guys is like debating with the Witnesses, you have an answer for eveything, the only difference between the two is that the RCC has had more years of experience.
Wow, debating with you is like debating with the Witnesses, even when there is a reasonable response, it falls on deaf ears because of ingrained reflexive prejudice.
BTS
I think all religion is just an attempt to explain God. There are so many different ideas that a person who really looks for a real answer will be disapointed by all religions. Where is there any proof of any of the claims that religions make about spiritual life. All these signs that Jesus is comming soon around the south here in NC is just a waste of time. All religious people want to go to heaven but no one wants to die. Time will tell, but how many more thousand years will it take?
Ken P.
Wow, debating with you guys is like debating with the Witnesses, you have an answer for eveything, the only difference between the two is that the RCC has had more years of experience.
Wow, debating with you is like debating with the Witnesses, even when there is a reasonable response, it falls on deaf ears because of ingrained reflexive prejudice.
Woooooooooooooooooooooooow, I adore ADORE!!! this kind of HI-quality debates!
Whereas Catholics know the Pope can and does sin Yes but millions of Catholics worship him anyway! kissing his ring, kneeling before him ,in MY opinion it is IDOL worship. Why not have a relationship with the Creator HIMSELF.....
God has no favorites----- so each of can ask for the HOLY SPIRITS teaching .Listen to no man in this regard>>>>( Religion)
Sorry Amazing I love you dearly, but I have to add my comment as you have. Will you still speak to me at PA again LOL?????
bttp
Hello Jim
Maybe you would like to comment on this post posted over on ChannelC on this forum.
Tor
Posted by Scorpion on Mon - May 5 - 02:17am:
In Reply to: Addendum posted by JimWhitney on Sun - May 4 - 6:06pm:
Thanks for the links Jim. I am not sure the information you provided though IMO could be said to dispel what you cassified as "common myths" of the Catholic Church.
Papal infallability.
The following statement was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv:
"We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."
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Exclusively the Only True Church:
"Catholic Book of PRAYERS" edited by Maurus Fitzgerald and published by CATHOLIC BOOK PUBLISHING CO., New Jersey. It is copyrighted 2003 and has both Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur by proper Catholic authorities. It is said to be the best selling catholic prayerbook in America now. Note the following claims on pp. 236,237, quoted verbatim:
"The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is the only flock of which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the only Shepherd. To hear the teachings of the Church and to submit oneself to its laws is to hear Jesus Christ and to obey Him. To refuse to submit to the decisions and laws of the Church is to refuse to submit to Jesus Christ. He himself has expressly said to His Apostles: He who hears you, hears Me; and he who rejects you, rejects Me; and he who rejects Me, rejects Him Who sent Me.
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Does the Catholic Church still use the above book?
Btw, here's a press commentary about a recently issued papal document saying, in essence, that they are the only true Church:
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070711/NEWS02/707110335/-1/s
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Praying to St. Mary, the Mother of Jesus, and praying to the Saints:
There is extensive material on this subject, mainly from Catholic sources that leads me to draw the conclusion that the prayers deliverd to the Saints and Mary are a form of idolatry.
The CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, Doubleday, 1995 (copyright 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc.) contains 2865 paragraphs of catholic teaching.
It calls Mary "all-holy" at least 7 times. (493, 721, 829, 1138, 2030, 2677, 2827). Wouldn't you view this as blasphemy.
The last part of 2677 states:
"By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present momemt, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son´s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son , Jesus, in paradise."
According to this it is Mary, not Jesus, who is in charge at death. And so it is deemed absolutely vital to invoke Mary. As "the All-Holy one" she is viewed as a goddess, and the veneration showed her here amounts to idolatry, no matter what is said to the contrary.
Prayers are directed to Mary in a way that the Jew in OT-times and the Christian in NT-times would only direct to God and Christ. And the songs of praise are such as should only be directed to God and Christ. The situation is not very different from that prevailing in the Watchtower organization. It is claimed that the organization does not set dates, and when the hard evidence to the contrary is presented, strenuous efforts are made to explain away and even deny the obvoius.
In what year did the Catholic Church institute praying to Saints? Was this a practice by early Christians shortly after the death of Christ?
How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri “We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).
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To tell you the truth, what religion you or Tom or anyone else belongs to is your choice and I am sure you have made this choice with much prayer and thought. When an individual either joins or belongs to a certain religious group, one thing I look for in the individual, if they have indeed done their homework, is to see if the person is truly being honest about their faith and what it and or the leaders teach as doctrine to be adhered too by the followers.
More often than not I have found not just Catholics, but others who belong to a certain faith ignorant to the designs and teachings of the religion. I do not think for a moment that you, Jim, are ignorant about what the Catholic Church teaches or has taught.
What puzzles me is that you would call these Catholic Church doctrines and teachings a Myth when the Church has indeed taught as truth the teachings of Mary and the Saints, the Only True Church, Papel infalibility, etc etc.. as is quoted above in just a few instances.
Of course maybe this is just one of those cases with the Church of do as we say, but don't really believe all that is written by us, because at times we may contradict what we said at another time.
What one believes spiritually is personal between them and God. Myself, I have to be honest with where I am with God and where I worship, what is and has been taught and who is doing the teaching. I have yet to find any religion that would resemble something that I would deem "God's true Church"
I hope I have not been too forward in my response. It is nice to see you posting on this forum again Jim.
Stan
I have yet to find any religion that would resemble something that I would deem "God's true Church"
AMEN TO THAT .....We are the church > bricks to make up a building of love ,Christ the foundation.
I believe that a part of divinity is in all life forms but accompanied by distractions which seek to suppress it until the life form dies and the divinity in each passes onwards. The divinity cannot be destroyed but can become neglected and hurt - or enhanced and inspired.It is for each of us to respect the divinity in life and help enhance that which is in each of us.
So I have an atheists view of a creator but a spiritual view of divinity. And the two feel like they are headed for a rendezvous which respects all life for what an amazing thing it is.
R. Crusoe: Brilliantly stated...
When the Catholic Church and the Watchtower Society finally realize that the Bible cannot be taken literally but is metaphorical and an allegory for the development of the divine in each of us, all 'beliefs' can be dismantled and the prejudices of one side vs. the other can be dispelled.
Hi Stan (Toreador) and Mouthy,
Stan: I will come back to address your comments as you presented above ... it may take several replies on this thread to complete. I will not reply on CC because the board owner does not like or want discussion that involves Catholic beliefs ... and the atmosphere is not conducive to calm discussion. If it changes, I will return, as I care about many good peple there. My only reason for posting there in the first place, after 9-months of being away, was to announce Tom Cabeen's interview on EWTN. The addendum link was intended to invite some to read my thread here regarding myths about Catholicism. Again, I will get back to you, and may need to do it in several responses.
Mouthy: I love you too. Your comments do reflect a lack of indepth understanding of Catholicism and a perpetuation of additional myths ... that is a comon thing and does not offend me. I am sure that I probably hold a few of my own myths about any number of topics. No self-respecting Catholic would ever worship the Pope. Many people feel as you do regarding the true Church, and wonder if such a thing ever existed. As I stated above in my opening thread, Christians are found in all Church denominations. Whereas, I believe that the "fullness" of the faith is found in both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. Jesus plainly promised that he would build and protect His Church for all time ... so it seems a little odd that for 1500 years there was only one Church, one faith ... and then now, people in the last 200 years seem to think that none ever existed ... some, like JWs, believe that God let the Church die an early death, and waited until the likes of Chuck Russell to appear 1800 years later to restore truth (or the Mormons Joe Smith, or Adventists Ellen White and Bill Miller). Others believe that the Church is simply all the Christians together in a sort of collective that may or may not know one aother who are scattered everywhere, but have no formal ties. Well, the Catholic Church simply admits to and holds the view that Christians are "both" found everywhere, and that the majority are found formally in the one Church which has survived since the beginning of the faith. I really see nothing to debate or feel any angst. I respct you as a Christian, and if you are happy with your present situation, then by all means, enjoy it, and continue in your faith in Jesus as you are. God bless you!
Jim Whitney
Papal infallability.
The following statement was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv:"We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."
///Exclusively the Only True Church:
"Catholic Book of PRAYERS" edited by Maurus Fitzgerald and published by CATHOLIC BOOK PUBLISHING CO., New Jersey. It is copyrighted 2003 and has both Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur by proper Catholic authorities. It is said to be the best selling catholic prayerbook in America now. Note the following claims on pp. 236,237, quoted verbatim:
"The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is the only flock of which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the only Shepherd. To hear the teachings of the Church and to submit oneself to its laws is to hear Jesus Christ and to obey Him. To refuse to submit to the decisions and laws of the Church is to refuse to submit to Jesus Christ. He himself has expressly said to His Apostles: He who hears you, hears Me; and he who rejects you, rejects Me; and he who rejects Me, rejects Him Who sent Me.
///
Matthew 16:18,19:
And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter [rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Praying to St. Mary, the Mother of Jesus, and praying to the Saints:
There is extensive material on this subject, mainly from Catholic sources that leads me to draw the conclusion that the prayers deliverd to the Saints and Mary are a form of idolatry.
To pray means to ask, and not necessarily to worship. Christians can ask other Christians to pray for them. Those in heaven are part of the body of Christ, and have not been separated from us by death. We are all in Christ. Most Christians pray for one another. How is it any different to ask the Christians in heaven to pray for us on earth?
According to your conclusion above the early Christians as evidenced by their writings and Scripture itself were idolatrous:
In Revelation 5:8, and Revelation 8:3-4 we see the saints in heaven praying before God. In Rev 6:11, 7:13-14 we see that they are aware of what is happening on Earth. You don't think they pray for us?
Tobit 12:12-15:
Ante-Nicene writings:
Hermas
[The Shepherd said:] "But those who are weak and slothful in prayer hesitate to ask anything from the Lord, but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement
In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping, and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer] (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
BTS
