Renaii, why the fascination with the Catholics, may I ask? You do understand that jgnat is not Catholic don't you? Are you asking her to take apart jw doctrine and the Catholics too for you?!
Taking apart the Memorial
by jgnat 77 Replies latest watchtower bible
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reniaa
basically because catholics have had the biggest influence in how christien events are observed, they had the stage for thousands of years so I started with them,
When you then go down the list of different Christian faiths practising the memorial/eucharist you see how they either follow catholic practise in all or partly, or reject it.
I don't know what christian faith jgnat is, but was intrigued by her use of the word "Abomination" in regards to how JW's only allow for the annointed to partake. Although jehovah's witnesses do view it as a deeply meaningful observation they don't in anyway venerate the memorial/eucharist emblems themselves, the emphasis is just on the remembrance and recognition of the annointed.
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carla
First of all you are wrong about the rest of so called Christendom following the Catholics and secondly jgnat is trying to show you and you refuse to listen and try to change the subject. That is what my jw does ALL the time! You try and tell him what you believe and why from scripture and he will point to the Catholics or some other group in which you have nothing in common with other than they are not jw's. Most Christians I know find the entire jw religion an abomination to God and the bible by the way, and I couldn't agree more.
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jgnat
Hello ladies, and isn't it nice to be talked about. I have specifically avoided the various denominations and their traditions and practices for a reason. In the big scheme of things about what is true or not, I like to start with the foundation. I think we've established that.
Whatever practice we look at now, must be measured against that foundation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_communion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist
I do note, Reniaa, that the practice of the Eucharist predates the supposed "corruption" of the Catholic church (early 2nd century).
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reniaa
Sorry jgnat I didn't mean for it to come across as talking about you :S
I just was reflecting on the eucharist and how it is observed by various faiths and i do agree with you on how it was established before roman catholism but they had sole control over christian practises for a long time and how events and celebrations are practised,
The history of the Catholic Church is virtually inseparable from the history of Western civilization. The Church has affected and shaped the lives and beliefs of Christians and non-Christians alike for almost 2,000 years. [2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church
so if we are breaking down the memorial they are the next logical step
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reniaa
Abomination because they set down (spiritually) starving people at the dining table to look but not share. The whole experience of sharing bread with another is deeply spiritual and intimate.
Passing a plate around (look-but-not-touch) is sterile and impersonal.
In my opinion, the Witnesses deliberately exclude six million people from communion. I refer to definitions one and three, below.
- Main Entry:
- com·mu·nion
- Pronunciation:
- \k?- ' myü-ny?n\
- Function:
- noun
- Etymology:
- Middle English, from Latin communion-, communio mutual participation, from communis
- Date:
- 14th century 1 : an act or instance of sharing 2 a capitalized : a Christian sacrament in which consecrated bread and wine are consumed as memorials of Christ's death or as symbols for the realization of a spiritual union between Christ and communicant or as the body and blood of Christ b : the act of receiving Communion c capitalized : the part of a Communion service in which the sacrament is received 3 : intimate fellowship or rapport : communication 4 : a body of Christians having a common faith and discipline <the Anglican communion>
and sorry i should have specified what i was replying to lol what you say above is correct but how much has our view of communion and the importance of the emblems been shaped by traditions?
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jgnat
The concept of communion, of community, of sharing...is something I feel very strongly about. I yearn, these days, to connect with people in a genuine way. Reniaa, I think you have sensed this about me in the way I have approached your very interesting comments about the Watchtower and religion in general. You are the sort of person I would love to sit down to coffee with and have a good, long, deep chat.
I feel very much the same way about carla.
I bet you didn't know that carla, and her husband, are fine artists. I'd love to see their work one day.
Now, add in to this mix a loving and generous God who willingly communes with us, and we begin to have a genuine sharing of mind and heart. This, I believe, is at the heart of communion. I won't give up the search for it for any man, or any doctrine.
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jgnat
More comparisons.
http://christianityinview.com/comparison.html
http://www.utccs.org/documents/apologetics/eucharist.pdf
And more about origins.
Reniaa, I've gone to a great deal of effort to show that the Memorial talk has it's own agenda separate from the concept of communion. You've been silent on those points so far. Have you had a chance to review all my posts on this thread?
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jgnat
The history of the Catholic Church is virtually inseparable from the history of Western civilization. The Church has affected and shaped the lives and beliefs of Christians and non-Christians alike for almost 2,000 years
Now, I know it is a re-occurring theme by the Witnesses that the Catholic Church is hopelessly corrupted by "pagan" practices and that all Christian denominations that follow suffer from those same fatal flaws. But what elements of the communion do all churches have in common, and do the Witnesses, in any way, separate themselves from those practices?
There is a cup or cups. There is a drink (wine to grape juice). There is bread (broken loaf or wafers). There is an audience and a leader. The leader stands at the stage or altar, and blesses the wine and the bread. Both are passed.
I would suggest that the Catholic influence that pervades all these practices is the introduction of an altar or stage, and the formal handing out of the emblems to a seated audience. In that sense, the Witnesses are no less "influenced" as anyone else.
But one could argue that the concept of a priest, and altar, and the sacrifice predates Catholicism. All religions at the time had temples, priests, and sacrifices...including the Jews and the Romans. This form would have been familiar to the earliest Christians.
The only way that the Witnesses separate themselves is that they do not partake. But I don't think this difference speaks to their favor. For the reasons I've mentioned several times already.
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reniaa
I'll be honest I haven't been able to do a thourough reading of this thread because of lack of time but I do agree Jw's are stuck here by the conclusions they have drawn about annointed and other sheep from the bible.
The memorial draws a distinction line between those two classes, making us think one has heavenly hope and others have earthly hope.
I saw first-hand the reaction of someone who has regular communion when he went a Jw memorial were people don't partake, he was horrified and bent his head started praying to Jesus in the middle of the memorial.
You talk of communion but I did not feel the lack, it felt just as sacred and as just as much as we were honouring jesus but it's like we were humble and not worthy to partake, recognising we were destined to live on earth forever and not be kings and priests in heaven, it's very hard to explain.
It sounds like you feel we are condemning ourselves by not partaking?
