Taking apart the Memorial

by jgnat 77 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I had an overnight think about humility. Reniaa, I completely agree with you that the Witness experience of humility is quite different than that of a regular Christian's. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Witness humility derives from the sense that they are not worthy. (Psalm 22:6, Romans 7:24). I understand the peculiar feeling of...holiness....that comes from personal sacrifice. I've seen that same glow from my friends who practice other religious traditions.

    When I saw that peculiar glow, it set me to thinking about how unique (or not) my own religious experience is.

    The Christian humility on the other hand, comes from my sense that I am forgiven regardless of my unworthiness. I count myself as a child of God, and so I can heed all the promises. (John 12:36, Romans 8:16, 17, 2 Corinthians 3:5, 6)

    As an example, consider how mankind's world view has changed our perception of ourselves. Which is more humbling -

    To be the sole resident of God's garden with the knowledge that I alone have been made in His image?

    Or to realize that not only do we not reside in the centre of God's creation, but that we circle an average star nestled in the back corner of an ordinary galaxy in an infinitely huge universe? .... but THEN to begin to sense that life itself is rare. And that our minds may operate on the odd physical laws that govern the smallest elements of creation (quanta)?

    http://www.whatthebleep.com/

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    SBF, what about this one?

    *** w06 2/15 pp. 23-24 par. 12 Gathering Things in Heaven and Things on Earth ***

    12 The anointed are also reminded of something else. Jesus told his faithful disciples: "The cup I am drinking you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am being baptized you will be baptized." (Mark 10:38, 39) The apostle Paul later spoke of Christians’ being "baptized into [Christ’s] death." (Romans 6:3) The anointed live a life of sacrifice. Their death is sacrificial in that they renounce any hope of everlasting life on earth. The baptism of these anointed Christians into Christ’s death is completed when after dying faithful they are resurrected as spirit creatures to "rule together as kings" with Christ in heaven.—2 Timothy 2:10-12; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I vaguely remember WT (and other fundamentalistic) desperate attempts to explain away 1 Corinthians 15:29 (being baptised for the dead, huper [tôn] nekrôn, which implies vicarious baptism, i.e. baptism on behalf of the dead, cf. Christ dying for us, huper hèmôn) as meaning nothing more than baptism into death along the lines of Romans 6. But the central problem imo is in its interpretation of the latter. If I remember correctly, the WT limits Paul's interpretation of Christian baptism in this passage to the "anointed". But at the same time they maintain that the "non-anointed" are actually sharing in the same baptism, ascribing to it (both for the "anointed" and "non-anointed") a different, and actually unscriptural, meaning (symbol of dedication).

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Thx for your honest opinion jgnat :)

    I was thinking of my childhood Memorials, I did know and see two annointed who partook but it didn't seem odd to me that they ate and the rest didn't. one was male the other female and I have to say they were both two of the sweetest gentlest souls you could hope to meet.

    Lol I do remember thinking as probably most witness kids do at one point or other that I should partake and I was one of the annointed but at 7 year's old you erm don't have the courage to see what would happen if you ate lol and annointed or not i'm pretty sure my mum would not let me have drunk the wine hehe

    reniaa

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    You are welcome, Reniaa.

    I've done a lot of work to show that, biblically speaking, the Watchower ritual does not stand up. The artificial separation of believers in to anointed and non does not stand up. That as a Christian, you have been deprived of an important community event that would help you bond with God and your fellow believers.

    I'm loaded with opinions, true, but this is more than opinion. Are you comfortable with an organization that does not support your stated core beliefs? Are you sure you aren't just going back to what is "comfortable" after a rather nasty experience outdoors?

    You have also been silent on my desire for greater communion and community with my friends. Is this because this is a new concept for you? (chocolate).

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I just had a look at the Insight book, article "baptism," which deals with both passages; what I had forgotten is that they actually explain the "baptism into Christ / Chist's death" in Romans 6 as a "spiritual" baptism distinct from water baptism -- something "happening" after water baptism for the "anointed," not for the others. This imo runs contrary to the plain meaning of the text, which offers a "spiritual" interpretation of Christian baptism as received by all Christians: this is clear enough even in the NWT: " Or do YOU not know that all of us who [osoi, lit. "as many as"] were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life."

    What I found hilarious is that, at the start of the article, they quote the same text to point out that its wording (eis, "into") implies that water baptism was done by immersion...

    The treatment of 1 Corinthians 15:29 is a study case of philological dishonesty, but that's another topic.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Good evening jgnat :)

    you make a good point and one that hasn't been touched upon and is the biggest difference.

    you have been deprived of an important community event that would help you bond with God

    When you and most people of the other christian faiths take communinon you are taking communion with your God!

    But with witnesses even the Annointed ones we are taking communion with our King and saviour but not with our God.

    I will argue the fact that it is a strong community event for Jws and personally i did feel that connection with others on memorial night as I said before it's more of a humble reverential feel to it, deeply respectful.

    I don't think I could ever goto another churches communion because I will never see jesus as God I love him but Jehovah has that place in my heart.

    Are you sure you aren't just going back to what is "comfortable" after a rather nasty experience outdoors?

    No, at first I wasn't sure why I wanted to go back but recent weeks on here have shown me it's because I can't give up jehovah, you said it yourself in a different post, the trinity is just too hard a block for many of us to leap over! and also maybe you can understand the feeling because it would be similar to how you would feel if you couldn't take communion.

    Losing jehovah for me would be like that because however much someone can say to me "you gain 3 Gods in one with the trinity", the way Jehovahs name is hidden and the scriptures using his name changed it does become a loss, I was brought up to love the bible and I read in a bible with jehovah's name in it over 7000 times, So I grew up with an indepth knowledge of jehovah you can only get reading his name in all the scriptures and stories. I have a love for him as strong as any other Christian has for Jesus I finally understand that now, and though I love Jesus too and nearly as much, jehovah has first place in my heart.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Good morning, reniaa. Thank you for helping me to understand your position.

    I still feel that you have glossed over all the big stuff in my posts here. You are not facing or admitting to the deep flaws of the organization you are returning to. There is no difference in the hopes. You have cut yourself off from the full promises of God. And, frankly, you are ignoring my offers of friendship. If you are uninterested in that sort of deep connection, I will have to accept that.

    I had mentioned the great barrier of the trininty that holds many exited JW's from looking at other religions. I have been reserving a few words about that. But I am a bit of a purist in debate, and I rather like to deal with one issue before I move on to another. Though it is fruitless, I think, for creation to debate the full nature of our Creator, with our limits of observation and language, I think I could make a very good argument that the Jehovah's Witnesses deliberately downplay the full nature of Jesus. The bible is quite clear that Jesus is fully God (not little god). As Narkissos is hinting on another topic (baptism) the society deliberately ignores or twists certain scriptures to force their doctrines to fit. It is the same with Jesus.

    You are quite different from other Witnesses I have debated in the past. You engage people in deep discussions who are not Witnesses themselves. You are relatively unafraid of new information. I suspect your return to the society will be short-lived. The organization of your memory has golden glow right now. The organization of today will not tolerate your free thinking for very long.

    You and I have this one thing in common; a yearning to be heard and a desire to be understood. I see this in your posting pattern and it is like you can't bear to be away. For very long. I will live in the hope that we will have many more deep conversations in the future, and you won't give up your free thinking ways for any man.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Thank you for describing the text on two baptisms, Narkissos. Gosh, I enjoy chatting with linguists and translators. Because of people like you, I can at best describe myself as a "middling" bible student. In summary, then, the descriptions of baptism in Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 15:29 indicate that it involves water, and all Christians participate as members of the same body?

    As a side note, I find it fascinating that one of the verses, in the original greek, speaks of a different purpose for baptism that the fundamentalist bible scholars ignore. It's a danger, isn't it, to try and harmonize the scriptures where there isn't any?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Thanks jgnat,

    I didn't mean to introduce baptism as "another topic," just to express that, imo, comparing the WT treatment of baptism and the Eucharist reveals a major inconsistency. Those two "sacraments" or "rituals," both implying a symbolical yet concrete physical gesture (getting immersed in water, eating bread and drinking wine) in a religious setting were common to most if not all early Christian communities -- even though their interpretation was not. Still the Society manages to apply one to both its "classes" and the second to just one of them. Go figure.

    The question might be better worded as, on what scriptural grounds does the WT require Christian baptism from people who are not meant to become part of the "Christian congregation" in the strict WT sense of that expression?

    Of course from a sociological perspective the why is crystal-clear: baptism is regarded as a commitment, and it gives the organisation power over the lives of people.

    In summary, then, the descriptions of baptism in Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 15:29 indicate that it involves water, and all Christians participate as members of the same body?

    1 Corinthians 15:29 (baptism for the dead) is not relevant as it obviously describes a local custom, so far unattested anywhere else afaik. And even in its farfetched WT translation/interpretation it would give no hint as to the form of baptism. The Insight book uses only Romans 6 to show that the verb baptizein originally carries the idea of immersion, which is basically right -- although the exact reasoning is flawed, inasmuch as baptizomai eis Khriston may equally be construed as an elliptical form of baptizomai eis to onoma Khristou, "to be baptised in the name of Christ", where eis loses its "local" sense of "into". Anyway, the argument would be utterly pointless if Paul, in that passage, was not giving his interpretation of water baptism (= immersion) as symbolic of union with Christ's death and burial, introducing to the "new life" of the resurrected Christ.

    As a side note, I find it fascinating that one of the verses, in the original greek, speaks of a different purpose for baptism that the fundamentalist bible scholars ignore. It's a danger, isn't it, to try and harmonize the scriptures where there isn't any?

    Perhaps not a different purpose for baptism in general but a particular Corinthian ritual in addition to the common Christian practice of baptism as introduction into the Church (aka Christ's body). I would add that the vast majority of conservative scholars do acknowledge that this text means just what it says, vicarious baptism on behalf of dead people.

    Btw, a more problematic issue in this verse, from the Protestant standpoint, is that Paul justifies the practice of "baptism for the dead" by exactly the same reasoning about resurrection which is used to justify prayer and sacrifices "for the dead" in 2 Maccabees 12:43f. Just compare:

    He (Judas) also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead (huper nekrôn).
    Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism on behalf of the dead (huper tôn nekrôn)? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf (huper autôn)?

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