So most of you have probably seen my YouTube video What You Should Know About Jehovah's Witnesses, which can be found here. Naturally, this draws quite a negative response from the JW community, but this particular person decided to send me a personal message.
you wanna talk smack about witnesses or anyone in general you better have your facts straight. Everything you said is taken almost enitrly out of context to our true practices. Not to mention everything thing we do comes directly out of the bible which can quoted by the scripture.If you have any quetions ask me and I'll fill them in for you but please do not go around spreading hate speach about a religion that you obviously do not fully understand
I believe he is of the impression that I'm not familiar with the religion, so of course I decide to set him straight. Our discussion is as follows:
Everything you teach comes out of the Bible, huh? Okay then.
- You teach that Jehovah has ALWAYS used an organization. If that's true, then who was God's organization from the 2nd century to 1879? If you read from the Bible, God almost always uses INDIVIDUALS: Adam, Moses, Noah. Certainly at times there were groups of people in charge, but the statement that God has ALWAYS used an organization is false.
Someone who is "called a brother," who is a
1. Fornicator
2. greedy
3. Reviler
4. Drunkard
5. Extortioner
If someone commits fornication, gambles, or gets drunk regularly, and does not wish to remain a brother, then scripturally he cannot be disfellowshipped. If a man performs oral sex on his wife, scripturally, he cannot be disfellowshipped, since that act does not fall under "porneia." If someone associates with a disfellowshipped person, scripturally he cannot be disfellowshipped himself, because 1 Corinthians does not list this as an act that requires shunning. Why does the Watchtower go beyond what the scripture says and ADD to this list? Why do they apply it to people who no longer want to be associated with the Witnesses, causing great distress between them and their families?
The Society's legalistic doctrines are exactly like those of the pharisees in Jesus' day.
He responds as follows:
1. first off what makes you think that those indiviuals weren't his organization? if you believe god is the creator then you can argue that his organization of teachings have been around since the begining. just because we haven't always been united under the name Jehovahs witnesses, diesn't mean we weren't there. what do you think those individuals were doind? they were spreading his organization.
2.we have not used the figure 607 BCE for many years now. that idea was one of several thousands of hypothesis we've used over the course of hundreds of years to help explain that which we dont understand. until the mid-14th century most people also thought that the world was flat, but that was just because they didn't know any better. it was a figure that has long since been discarded. we have never used that figure to state the definate begining of time. i dont know what makes you think that. even the portions of the bible itself we know to have been writen well before that date.
3. come now, do you hoenstly believe that is what that verse means? you are doing what so many people are guilty of in that your takeing a verse and only useing a small portion of it to make it say what you want. the whole vers says: 1 Timothy 3:2- the overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband to only one wife (meaning that he is to love one and only one women, his wife) moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach. this verse is just laying down some guideline on what makes a good overseer. if you read the next verse it also states what makes a bad one.
4. how can you hold todays dressing habits to the bible? it was writen over the course of hundreds if not a thousand years. dressing style have changed many time. adam and eve were nude. but what the bible does say is that we are to dress in a nice, neat, orderly fashion. the bible expresses the need for modesty may times throught the chapters. do you go to a job interview with pink hair and a mohawk dressed like a bum?
5. what you mean like: moses, abraham, david, saul, gideon, methuselah, NOAH, Job to name a few. thats basically what the old testimet is. the new testimet are scriptures writen by the apostles and several others lossly connected by jesus.
6. it doesn't. we istitued these standards to help us asses the amount of time we spend in the field so that we might better oursleves. and also these records allow the organization to report back to us the amount of total time we spend each year. its a great tool for encouragment. it is never required we report it, only encouraged.
7. probably the best verse would be: "faith without action is hollow" our status in the congergation is not effected by the time served in the field. i honestly dont know where you got it that you cant serve in the congergation if you dont spend a certain amount of time in the field. it is encouraged to spend as much as possible and for those that reach a certain amount of time we do have a term to use: "Pioneering" but everyone knows that we cant all spend that much time. it would be ridiulous to think so.
8. Are we talking about the same religion? we dont use symbols, and we dont celibrate christmas or any holidays for that matter. as a matter of fact thats the majority of what seperates us from other christian groups. were did you get that idea. any symbols that may be used are never used to identify ourselves with but rather to identify others that may be part of a lesson that is being taught. once more a foundation of many teachings is that jesus was crusified on a stake not a cross. so why would we use a cross? and for the second part of the quetion, that was once again another hypothesis that was used. no ones perfect after all. if you remeber the bible also state that god "will come like a thief in the night." in that verse hes telling us not to expect him. live each day like we would any other.
9. ok, your putting far to much weight on the watchtower. that is simply a study tool we use to help spread the word a little more easily. the bible is and always been the deciding factor in every decision we make. the watchtower never effects our decisions. now as far as disfellowshiping, this is one of the more hot topics we commonly discuss and often the most misunderstood one. what the bible says is that: we are to remove oursleves from unclean habit so as to not spoil our own. for instance, would you allow your children (if you have any) to assoiciate with a drug addict? no because you would not wish them to pick up on such bad habits. its the same here. now about the ones that you listed, yes they are of paticular importance. mostly because they each belong to one of the seven dealy sins. as such they were listed directly, but they were only examples. did you expect someone to list every single thing that we could do wrong. not hardly, so they summed it up in the phrase above. we remove ourselves from unclean habits so as to not spoil our own.
I do appreciate the quetions and am sorry you seem to hold a grudge against witnesses. but I would like to add one thing. i dont believe any single organization has it ALL correct. that would be immpossible as we are all human and humans are imperfect. disagreements like these are what led to so many branches of the christian church being formed. but i do believe that the what is said in the bible is the truth, and that the Jehovah witnesses have adopted a good understanding of it. I would like to get a reply from you.
I found it interesting that he would outright lie about what JWs believe. They don't believe in 607? Here is my response:
1. Because an individual isn't an "organization" by definition. You also didn't answer my question regarding who the "organization" was for the 1800 or so years between the death of John and the rise of Russell
2. Come on! I should tell you that I've been a JW my entire life, and I know for a fact that they do teach the 607 BCE date to this day. The entire 1914 teaching HINGES on it. It's in the Reasoning book for goodness sakes! I find it quite disturbing that you would openly lie to someone about that. You know what the Bible says about liars.
3. "the overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband to only one wife" First off, you added the "only" to that scripture. And that little parenthesis thing you did after? that's what I'm talking about. JW's can't just read the Bible, they need the Watchtower society to add to it. Even if the "only" part was correct, it's still a requirement to be a "husband."
4. My point about dressing rules is that it ISNT IN THE BIBLE. This is a classic tactic that is used by JWs when I bring this up. I say where in the Bible does it require suit and tie, no beards, and you say "well you wouldn't want someone up there with a mohawk!" I'm not talking about mohawks and I'm not talking about pink hair. I'm talking about the silly rules the congregations have about beards and suits specifically despite the complete lack of biblical basis.
6. Another bold-faced lie! I sit through the same meetings you do, and the time slips are NOT for us personally. If that were true, how come we have to turn them in? Where in the Bible does it talk about the Apostles even keeping track of their time? Preaching isn't about how many hours you spend, it's about results. If this were for just our personal use, then why is it compulsory? Why is it taken into account when assignments are given in the hall or appointments are made?
7. "our status in the congergation is not effected by the time served in the field." If you really believe that, you're fooling yourself. Try becoming an elder, pioneer, or ministerial servant when your "hours are low," and see what happens. I'm saddened again that you'd lie so much. You can't B.S. me, I was raised a witness.
8. No, but you did. It even says so in the Proclaimer's book. Christmas was celebrated in Brooklyn Bethel up until 1928. Why is this important? Because, again, the society says it was selected in 1919! If it was celebrating Christmas, predicting false dates and using "pagan" symbolism, how could Jesus find that acceptable? You can't just use the past whenever it's convenient and then say "it doesn't matter" or "new light!" whenever a true investigation into your past turns up some disturbing facts.
9. The Watchtower is far, far more than a "study tool." It is your main source of doctrine. When you say "the bible" is the determining factor, what you actually mean is "the bible as interpreted by the Watchtower." How can you say the Watchtower affects your decisions when all 6 million of you instantly changed your understanding of "the generation" recently? This change is not "a clarification of truth," but a RETURN to old doctrines that were taught in the 20's. Your concept of "new light" is confusing. If you're reverting back to old teachings, then the light's not getting "brighter." Is God playing with the dimmer switch?
I can't believe how much misinformation you were trying to spread. Either you're young and don't know your religion very well, or your attempts at deception were deliberate. I have a feeling that the former is true. If that's the case, why don't you study your own religion a lot more before trying to defend it?
Finally, his final response. Again, he insists 607 is not taught as the date of jerusalem's destruction. I guess he wasn't been reading the Daniel Book. (Emphasis added)
sir I belive you have a very narrow minded view of the bible. The bible is not a rule book that determines everything we do. it is a guide books that helps us in liveing in an imperfect world. you are takeing the bible word for word and expecting that what it says is the dead set law. the bible was writen by imperfect human so how can you possibly expect it to be exactly how god intended it. I dont care if you've been raised as a witness your entire life, it doesn't mean you understand the bible. if you truly studied the bible then you would understand what I am talking about. we are all imperfect and as such we all make mistakes. i openly said that i do not fully agree with the oranizatios PAST decisions. Once more we have not used the 607 BCE date for some years now as part of our teachings. yes it is still discussed from time to time but that doesn't mean its what we believe. the foundation of bible students was formed in 1876 but we didn't adopt the name until 1931. I can fully undersant why up until 1924 christman was celebrated. back then christmas was still dedicated to jesus's birth and not the global marketing sceme it is today. it still ment something. obviously even back then they saw the flaw because it sure didn't last very long after the formation of the organization. and on the topic of what makes an organization, how can you expect there always to be a vast organized group of people to carry on gods word. if you know the bible then you'd understand the during the early years of humanity to have faith in any god was a hardship, thats why from time to time god would approach a special human and have him reignite the spark of faith in humaity. and i might add that anything i added in parenthesis was MY own opinion. i'd never change anything. also like i said before the bible does not say that we must keep track of our time in the field. read what i wrote. that is simply a helpful tool for the organization to use to improve the quality of our work habits. but the bible does say that it is our responsibility to bring the word of god to the people via our ministries. once again like i said before I never stated that anywhere in the bible does it set down a standard of dress for us. what it does say is that we are to dress modestly so as to seperate ourselves from the world. to set an example. you may view the watchtower as something more, but i have never met a single person in all my years that holds the watchtower to a higher standard then the bible itself.
Now answer me this. if you truly believe in all these trivial, misinterpreted flaws of the jehovah witnesses then why do you insist on going to meetings. you seem to have lost your faith in the bible some time ago. you see i dislike blind aggresstion for the sake of aggression. it serves no purpose but to slow progress
Seriously, how do you argue with someone so delusional, someone who has NO idea what his church even teaches? Some of the things he's saying could get him disfellowshipped, yet he still trods along as a good little Watchtower sheep, spreading the good news he apparently knows nothing about.