Why I post about atheism

by nvrgnbk 64 Replies latest jw friends

  • Galileo
    Galileo

    Great thread. If I could add my own reasons -

    Atheism for me was the result of a long journey. Along the way I came to realize that much of the bible was not supported by evidence that should have been there, such as the Exodus, the wars of the Israelites, and of course the utterly impossible and ridiculous global flood. Much of it is clearly rewrites of older stories that Christians today would consider pagan. Even many if not all of the supposed miracles of Jesus were copies of legends that were already common by the time Jesus was born, so much so that some biblical scholars, such as Bob Price, have said that Jesus did "nothing that was original to him". Eventually I came to accept that the bible is the work of man, full of all too human xenophobia, racism, sexism, class distinctions, and a blatantly wrong and ignorant view of the natural world.

    So what is there to base belief in a god in without the bible? Would I have come to believe in a god if I hadn't grown up with religion? To put it another way, suppose for the sake of argument that you were born into a world where the man made bible, along with the other man made "holy" books, had never been written, but in which people had discovered all that we now know or have strong evidence for about the natural world: Common descent, the laws of nature, physics, the big bang, etc. Would you have any reason to postulate a magic all powerful invisible giant?

    But religion is more than just wrong. It is detrimental to human development. There may have been a time when it served an important function, but that function has now been taken over by secular laws and science. Now it serves largely to keep people ignorant, to fight progress, and to make a virtue of self deception. Even worse, in many forms, it encourages and rewards murder, slavery, abuse of women, all the worst and most barbaric aspects of human nature. I do not believe religion in any form is worthy of respect. Religious individuals, yes. Some. But religion as an institution, absolutely not. I believe Sam Harris hit the nail on the head, that even religious moderates lay the groundwork and legitimize religious extremists.

    Do I believe there is proof that god doesn't exist? Of course not. No one sane does. Granting that, if it makes you more comfortable, you may call me an agnostic. But I am agnostic to god only in the same respect that I am agnostic to fairies in my back yard that only materialize when no one is watching. Can I disprove that? No. Do I think it likely...

  • Highlander
    Highlander
    I have no answers, but I found it comforting

    I find it more comforting to admit that I don't have the answers, as opposed to how I felt when I was a bible thumping, know it all j-dub that merely believed in myths passed down through 5 generations within my family.

  • What-A-Coincidence
  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    Nicely put Nate!

    Dave

  • Shazard
    Shazard

    Ohh classic - problem of evil!

    It boils down to - I don't believe in GOd coz he is not acting as I would if I would be God :)

    Next logical step - I don't believe in God if I am not THE God or He is not my personal Wishmaker!

    Good luck with this reasoning - it is typical reasoning which Atheists call "rational" and somehow they believe that this IS rational thinking and perception of the Reality!

  • What-A-Coincidence
    What-A-Coincidence

    Thanks shazard ... you got some major reasoning skills ... watchtower like.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    Personally, I became an atheist more because I'm "not seeing it, not feeling it".

    I don't see a deity in my everyday life. Neither supernaturally or 'naturally'. I can see how others would, however. My feeling is that believers have a combination of a 'hunch'; a 'gut feeling' caused by looking at the complexity of life and matter, combined with a variant on Pascal's wager buried way back in their subconscious. This awe, this gut feeling, plus an underlying, possibly subconscious, thought of "well, at least I'm trying to please God, so if I'm wrong in the details, that's what matters." is what I think sums up faith in most people. That it's a choice, often contrary to experience, with a small amount of Pascal's wager thrown in. I know it's dangerous to try and explain what faith is because for believers it's something mysterious and supernatural, but this is my personal understanding based in my current perspective on life.

    When I say "became an atheist", it's not a new religion I've embraced; it's more like a 'waiting room'; waiting for God to show up. The default position. Not that I sit and wait actively, but I sit in this 'waiting room' for God just as I sit in the 'waiting room' for Sasquatch, alien visitors, unicorns etc. I wouldn't mind the existence of any of them. I wouldn't mind the existence of a God at all. It would depend a little on how this God was personality wise, but my belief would not be dependent on this deity's personality or reasons. I have a line of work that unfortunately makes me somewhat desensitized to other people's (strangers') pain and suffering. I have to be, otherwise I couldn't function in that job. So perhaps I have a little different perspective on a potential God and those areas of life. Or rather, although I agree that there is too much suffering in the world, I'm not focusing on it much in my atheism. If God exists and he's an a**hole, he'd still exist. He'd just be a lousy God (yes, I write 'he', but only to avoid having to write he/she/it/them all the time...). So suffering is not such a good argument for God's non-existence (only certain specific images of God in that case) in my opinion. I'm not an atheist because "I'm angry at God". How insane would that be? I can however be angry at the God other people think exists, or rather that concept. There's a difference.

    Now, when I said I'm sitting in the waiting room awaiting further evidence, many believers will knee jerk: "But you have evidence all around you!". This is part of the 'hunch' and 'gut feeling' I was talking about that people have. I have to admit that as I have dug into scientific theories, I've found many amazing things in nature - but they have a natural explanation and origin. From the formation of the universe and the matter within, to the emerging species. There are gaps in knowledge here and there in which we can put a creating deity, like the start of life or the start of the universe and many others, but seeing how the 'God of the gaps' (the deity put into any fitting gap of knowledge) has had to 'flee' the area every time new knowledge has filled that gap, I don't see it as a smart thing to put God into them in the first place. Now - even the natural explanation of the origin of the universe and species etc. does not preclude a deity. So this is not necessarily a good argument for God's nonexistence either.

    Saying it is could be said to be like mechanically analyzing the way a paint brush has stroked a canvas in certain ways, naturally creating certain shapes because the brush was moved that way, and that other shapes would have been created had it been moved differently - without saying anything about the artist, because we know nothing about the artist and therefore couldn't comment on him 'scientifically'. However, there is a difference, which I'm not going to go into detail about here, but there is a difference between the two scenarios; a creator is not needed for organic molecules to bond, or for matter to arrange itself in certain forms caused by gravity. Then again, the God of the gaps can be inserted here, because why does the universe have these properties? While there are several logical answers to that, it's not a stupid question to ask. But of course; artists can be found and interviewed any time one would want, and even if one particular artist was nowhere to be found, others could be found, interviewed, studied while they worked etc. and in extension, a good idea about the artist in question could be formed as well. God however is strangely absent or silent.

    Well, for most of us anyway:

    Some people have very vivid, physical or at least psychological encounters with God. One is not supposed to question this, because it is deemed to be inappropriate and rude to do so. On one hand, I can agree; such an experience can't really be discounted by me simply because I haven't had them myself. But several questions do arise. Why do people of different cultures and religions meet different Gods? Why does God show himself (he, she, it, them...) only to a few elect people? Why does he help these few people and not others? Etc. One obvious answer would be that there are many different existing Gods, another answer that only some of these are real experiences (who's to judge? "that's not my God, so can't be real" ?). Another answer is that none of them are real.

    I think that if science hadn't answered any questions regarding how the universe and species (and possibly life itself) emerged, I would have been a deist based on the above and other questions, and lack of personal experience with a deity. As it is, I don't think I would have been a theist.

    -But it seems I can go on and on here and cover many different topics; I can already feel my post being quoted and dissected a sentence at a time, and the resulting conversation carried in many different directions. But I was trying to make one, more or less coherent point: I don't share the 'hunch', the 'feeling' that believers do. Or maybe I do to some extent, but in a different way. I too can feel awe at complexity and beauty, but I guess like a teenager at a sci-fi movie loudly commenting on how all the special effects were made, instead of really getting sucked into the wondrous fantasy of the story, I look at nature and see those underlying principles that made it come about, complexity from humble beginnings, not complexity from complexity.

    I haven't had any great revelations or experiences. Or maybe I have, at least on the same level as many believers, but have interpreted them differently.

    So I'm sitting in the waiting room. This does not make me an agnostic, because based on currently available (available to me) evidence and experience, I don't see God. So it makes me an atheist. Does that mean I think God cannot exist? That I refuse to believe no matter what? No, I hold that open of course. But I'm not going to be a believer in an attempt at scoring in a possible game of Pascal's Wager. It shouldn't be hard for a God to show himself. If I'm not worthy of a visitation because of something my ancestors did, however unfair that would be, at least I could be sent a messenger? Some would say I am a God myself, but in that case it won't really matter what I believe in this life; I should be able to take care of myself in the afterlife then, and believe it or not, I won't judge myself harshly.

    That does not mean that I think all believers are deluded (or rather 'insane'). I happen to think some of them hold obvious false beliefs, but so do believers about other believers. I happen to believe that some believers have a wrong understanding of reality because they discount what scientific discoveries have been made (or they have been told some skewed version of that scientific discovery) in favor of a literal reading of a book written thousands of years ago. But aside from that, I feel I respect believers for their beliefs. But there are questions that arise as a consequence of believing, and the answers don't satisfy me personally. This is probably why I post "atheistic thoughts"; to try and get answers, or get people to really think about their beliefs. This is probably why theists post as well.

  • Shazard
    Shazard

    What-a-coincidence

    JW is no match for me! Can you counterargument? How do you remove personal dislike of different-then-my morals from arguemnt from evil reasoning. It by itself implies trascendent moral code which atheist applies to measure God's (and not only) morals. Which implies trascendent moral law giver/source! But that contradicts atheist default position, so atheist is left with subjective sense of what is right and wrong in particular state of universe, so all you got is local narrow view on global process which you somehow use to justify your attitude to this global process! How that is possible and stay cosistent in your mind is beyond my understanding, which, ofcourse is not absolute, but you are free to answer!

  • Shazard
    Shazard

    Awakened07

    You told:

    I think that if science hadn't answered any questions regarding how the universe and species (and possibly life itself) emerged, I would have been a deist based on the above and other questions, and lack of personal experience with a deity. As it is, I don't think I would have been a theist.

    For me it is new. Did science answered this? In particulary, where could I read some papers about abiogenesis repeated empirically, it's mathematical (it is language of physics) apparatus and more, where could I get to know new emerging technologies of IT software which employs the process/math to generate new software without human interference, plainly using this process which generated life from nonlife.

    If there is no empirical evidence of repeated abiogenesis demonstrated, if there is no mathematical apparatus which describes such process, then I guess you are lying or just interpretating some data to favour such process which is not demosnstrated.

    But I could demonstrate you how mind can produce spciefied complexity and even some basic building blocks of life - proteins! Ahh yes, may be science has explained mind itself too, that would make software engineer job unnecessary and would produce AI... do we have such case?

    We believe in God of gaps, you believe in "future materialistic explanation". It is nice to see atheist to refer to some explanation which is supposted to appear somwhere in near future as it is allready prooven fact. Most funny is that materialist allows only materialistic explanation of phenomena and most funny, only such explanation which fits current knwoledge of how Universe works (hmmm what would brother Raits would say about such reasoning)... and this view by very definition exlcudes any other explanation which means IF the phenomena is outside of materialistic paradigm, then materialists will not be able to see it by the limitation of methodological naturalism which atheists mix with phylosophical naturalism... Even if there IS God materialists will never experience him as they just do not allow nonmaterialistic beings to exist! Materialist definition of objective existence is subjective perception. Things start to exist only when materialist percieves them and can describe them, until then... it does not exist objectively! :) And how do you actually cross the streets without being hit by bus?

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I find it revealing that, although Shazzard has not committed on this thread to either position, but simply posits the potential logical flaws in some atheist' approach, he is wiped with the believer brush immediately. Could not an atheist also point out same from a logical perspective? Since there is no 'faith' to defend, according to many, why are attacks poised when flaws are suggested, as if one's religion is under attack? Just asking. Some comments just bark 'religious intolerance' while insisting that no religious nature is attached to atheism. Just saying.

    As to Nvr's statements as to his reasons - they make sense to me - though not enough at this point to make an impact on my opinions to date. But of course he does not attempt to do that. No militancy in his post. Though I have not fully adopted your view, Nvr, I appreciate your kind and rational tone in presentation. Thank you for that.

    I love Jehovah's Witnesses. I love atheist' too. I am somewhere between at this point.

    Jeff [of the not so sure how to make atheist plural class lol]

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